US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Barrister]

Before DL/NW had any merger used more than one arbitrator? Or did you guys learn from our disaster and come up with your solution?

We tried to come up with a solution, the west's line in the sand was Dave and they would not agree to put one furloughed pilot ahead of him. With that stance, the east committee decided to go the way they did. I think that was a mistake, but that doesn't make Nicolau completely right, in my opinion.

We did not have the ability to CONTROL our destiny. We had options to try and steer it.

And you, Mr. Real Delta, are not my friend.

By the way Mr. Oscar Jazz who went ahead of NW guys 4-5 years senior...the West proposal put 900
active U pilots on the bottom.....now go back to your real DAL hole.

NICDOA
NPJB

P.S since you are over here snooping around let me ask you.....if NIC complied with ALPA merger policy then did the 17 year
never furloughed pilot at U have the same standing as a AWA pilot who had NEVER FLOWN A REVENUE TRIP?????
NIC seemed to think so and we are where we are.

 

[Barrister]

You and others keep insisting on something which isn't true. "Ripe" is not a bright line visible to everyone but the westies, nothing could be further from the truth. Various courts have ruled on both sides in DFR suits - ripeness occurs when a contract is complete and ripeness occurs when the union gives an indication of the direction it's headed. Looking at this case, a lawyer could cite case law showing that ripeness occurred when USAPA put DOH in it's constitution. A lawyer could cite case law showing that ripeness occurred when USAPA gave it's seniority proposal to the company. A lawyer could cite case law showing that ripeness occurs only when a contract is completed. If the west hadn't filed the suit when it did, a contract without the Nic was ratified and then the west sued, I guarantee a USAPA lawyer would be arguing that ripeness occurred with the constitution language or DOH proposal and also arguing that the statute of limitations had expired.

Even the 9th has said:

"Ripeness is a case-specific inquiry and does not lend itself to broad, bright-line rules based on the type of claim asserted." (2000)

“It is important to a ripeness analysis that we specify the precise legal question to be answered. Depending on the legal question, the case may be ripe or unripe. If we ask the wrong legal question, we risk getting the wrong answer to the ripeness question.” (2006)

In other words, ripeness depends on the specific circumstances of a case and how a judge or judges view those circumstances. Even the Supreme Court has ruled differently on ripeness based on the unique circumstances of different cases. So for you or anyone else to claim that "the lawyers knew" or "it was obvious that it wasn't ripe" is delusional at best.

Jim

Hey oh wise one Seham knew because it was not part of the CBA...and that is what the 9th said....
and since you are so adept at interpreting what the 9th meant where do your westies get off saying
that the 9th held that IT HAD TO BE THE NIC OR SOMETHING BETTER....
wow missed that part of the opinion...still looking for it.!!!!

NICDOA
NPB

 

[aquagreen73s]

By the way Mr. Oscar Jazz who went ahead of NW guys 4-5 years senior...the West proposal put 900
active U pilots on the bottom.....now go back to your real DAL hole.

And the West came off that initial proposal. Why? Because unlike the East, we understood how to work within the system. The arbitrator wanted both sides to come off their positions and the West did but the East didn't. Realistically, Nicolau should have made the award the final West proposal since the East didn't budge one bit. However, Nicolau didn't do that. Lucky for you he split the baby anyway.

 

[crazystnic]

You usapians were convinced the West would just roll over. In fact, you went "all-in" on your DOH cram down by eliminating the West as a separate entity. The company took a step back and watched what the West would do. DFRs are notoriously difficult to win. The West did it - in TWO HOURS OF DELIBERATIONS! Yes we did spend a fair amount of money, plus had to defend against the wretched, unethical and very scabbish actions by the East of using their fake union to sue individual West pilots on fabricated claims. But, we did it and the company took note. When the 9th Cir. came out with their curve ball, it was the company who had to do something because they knew the West has a winning case and that they want no part of negotiating with USAPA absent blanket immunity. Plus, what's there not to love if you're Parker? He's got two-thirds of his pilot group on BK wages and he'll in all probability have an injunction to hold over the union. Doug doesn't need to negotiate.

That's what our $2million bought. Priceless.

Enjoy LOA93. I've got nearly two and a half decades left to amortize this debacle. How about you?

there in lies the problem.. YOiu have 2 and a half decades to go and you are up and arms over this???
what gives?

why don't you wait your turn and then own this joint.. In the mean time... let those who have waited stay in line.
unbelievable.

 

[Black Swan]

Here is another classic Wake! When he wanted to impose Nicolau. This is what got the NMB parachuters suited up for the airdrop! Hobby doesn't even BEGIN to describe that circus!



The judge ordered that USAPA must negotiate to implement the Nicolau Award unchanged into a combined collective bargaining agreement. It also ordered that USAPA could not negotiate separate agreements for the pilot groups. A later hearing on monetary damages, if any, will be held.



Looks like your Desert Judge was CLUELESS on the Ripeness also, Dumb, and dumber........

 

[Black Swan]

there in lies the problem.. YOiu have 2 and a half decades to go and you are up and arms over this???
what gives?

why don't you wait your turn and then own this joint.. In the mean time... let those who have waited stay in line.
unbelievable.

You St Nic. A friend at the CLT trng center today heard from the top that 25 a month are going to be hired on the EAST side, starting Jan. I just don't get why the younger west guys are giving up all that attrition coming. When the new hires get in, they will NEVER vote on a combined CBA that cascades the west on them, that is the real danger coming now.

 

[aquagreen73s]

there in lies the problem.. YOiu have 2 and a half decades to go and you are up and arms over this???
what gives?

I brought a job to the merger. Over a thousand of the East pilots did not. The arbitrator said the furloughs go to the bottom which, by the way, is typical in mergers. That's what gives.

why don't you wait your turn and then own this joint..

"This joint"? As in US Air? That entity is dead once Judge Mitchell issued the discharge order and from that there was a new company comprised of America West Airlines and, technically speaking, the assets of the old US Air. What's galling is that those who brought nothing to this new company want something from nothing.

unbelievable.

I agree.

 

[cleardirect]

Aqua, were you part of the west legal braintrust that spent the 2 million? I really don't know how any lawyer/pilot of Leonidas could have possibly have missed the point on this one. It is like suing for damage in an auto accident that didn't happen, but you think will happen. Try filing the police report before it happens, the insurance claim, before it happens, and then try to book a trial, before the accident. It just does not make any sense at all. Unbelievable. The LOA pay win, if it happens, will seal the deal on Leonidas. The senior 2/3 West are going to want the money, and ditch the angry 1/3 AFO s driving the Leonidas debacle. It will be OVER.

If you east pilots and Seham are so smart. Why did Seham throw the kitchen sink at the ninth? Why not go in there say it is not ripe and sit down. If it was such a slam dunk and everyone know it.

Why is it that not one of you outhouse lawyers who says it is so obvious now never even heard of or spoke the words not ripe before the ninth ruled?

 

[Schultz]

I brought a job to the merger. Over a thousand of the East pilots did not. The arbitrator said the furloughs go to the bottom which, by the way, is typical in mergers. That's what gives.

The MDA pilots brought jobs to this merger. But screw them, Right.

 

[Pi brat]

And the West came off that initial proposal. Why? Because unlike the East, we understood how to work within the system. The arbitrator wanted both sides to come off their positions and the West did but the East didn't. Realistically, Nicolau should have made the award the final West proposal since the East didn't budge one bit. However, Nicolau didn't do that. Lucky for you he split the baby anyway.

Nicolau didn't see it quite the way you did. His words:

"Like that of US Airways, America West's position was not
substantially modified during the proceedings."

So the west came off 1/32", and Nicolau should have punished those mean old easties that didn't budge.

The Nicolau Opinion and Award. Ever read it?

Definition of Like
Like
Having the same, or nearly the same, appearance, qualities, or characteristics; resembling; similar to; similar; alike; -- often with in and the particulars of the resemblance; as, they are like each other in features, complexion, and many traits of character.

Didn't they cover that in Law School?

 

[Pi brat]

The sun was in my eyes, I tripped over a rock, my mitt was too big, he didn't pass me the ball, the ref was blind.....................Excuses, excuses.

Now I am going to go cry my eyes out because you were mean to me. Really, how old are you?

Was I so mean that you couldn't answer my questions? I'm sorry, didn't really mean it. Now answer, or leave.

I had a great discussion about DL with a NW pilot the other day. What a hoot!

 

[Pi brat]

"Paging Ms. DreaminofCLT. Ms. DreaminofCLT, you have a message on the white courtesy phone. Many, many people are waiting for your definition of double digit profitable quarters."

 

[cactusboy53]

By the way Mr. Oscar Jazz who went ahead of NW guys 4-5 years senior...the West proposal put 900
active U pilots on the bottom.....now go back to your real DAL hole.

NICDOA
NPJB

P.S since you are over here snooping around let me ask you.....if NIC complied with ALPA merger policy then did the 17 year
never furloughed pilot at U have the same standing as a AWA pilot who had NEVER FLOWN A REVENUE TRIP?????
NIC seemed to think so and we are where we are.

Uhhhh, were they ACTIVE at the time of the snap shot, OR were they ACTIVE at the time of the rendered decision? That is the question.

PS Can't you find some NEW argument vs. ALL OF THE TIRED OLD ONES? 😛

 

[Pi brat]

Uhhhh, were they ACTIVE at the time of the snap shot, OR were they ACTIVE at the time of the rendered decision? That is the question.

PS Can't you find some NEW argument vs. ALL OF THE TIRED OLD ONES? 😛

Quiz! Did Nicolau use the fleets and related positions they brought to the merger? AKA, the snapshot?

It happened 4 years ago, what could be new?

You're doing a great job! Keep it up and maybe Ken will let you use the east ss#s!

 

[Black Swan]

Quiz! Did Nicolau use the fleets and related positions they brought to the merger? AKA, the snapshot?

It happened 4 years ago, what could be new?

You're doing a great job! Keep it up and maybe Ken will let you use the east ss#s!

More extremely astute observations by Wilder.......

"The judge also held that the case should be heard now because of the furloughs ongoing among West pilots. But those furloughs have nothing to do with the USAPA proposal. They are a result of US Airways drawing down its West operation.

Of course, the fact that US Airways is drawing down more on its West operation undermines the entire premise of the Nicolau Award–that West pilots had far greater career expectations and a more viable carrier. Nicolau came to this erroneous conclusion only because of the shallow record before him on America West’s prospects, including his (now obviously wrong) dismissal of a statement by America West President Scott Kirby that AWA had financial distress that required the merger.

Thanks to the court, however, an erroneous arbitration award, based on an erroneous record on the subject of America West’s future, is set in stone."


By Richard N. Velotta (contact)
Published Wednesday, Oct. 28, 2009 | 11:22 a.m.
Updated Wednesday, Oct. 28, 2009 | 1:31 p.m.

Sun Archives
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Beyond the Sun
US Airways
McCarran International Airport
US Airways, once the busiest carrier at McCarran International Airport, will slice its schedule of 64 daily flights to 36 by the end of February.

The Tempe, Ariz.-based airline announced today that it would close its Las Vegas crew bases and drop flights to 13 destinations from the end of December through the end of February.

The announcement was part of broader cuts systemwide by the airline that includes eliminating 1,000 jobs and ending service to five European destinations from the airline’s East Coast gateway at Philadelphia.

The airline is continuing to shore up its most profitable business. Las Vegas, primarily a leisure market, doesn’t offer the same profit margins as other business travel-driven markets.

The cuts were particularly hard-hitting to Las Vegas, where US Airways has steadily reduced its presence since 2007. In the early 1990s, as America West Airlines, it was the busiest carrier at McCarran.

By the end of December, the airline will end nonstop round trips between Las Vegas and Detroit; Minneapolis; Seattle; Sacramento and San Jose, Calif.; and the Canadian cities of Edmonton, Alberta; Vancouver, British Columbia; and Toronto.

At the end of January, flights between Las Vegas and San Diego will be cut.