US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

Wow. That's just plain arrogant.

Arrogance is thinking one knows how a system works when they've never worked with that system. Would you believe a mechanic who'd never worked on cars before but drove one on occasion?

Time to call it quits. You should fully retire.

Ah, the usual attack when one can't rebut the argument.

The USAir you knew is not what it is today

But the bid system is...

and the FARs which may be in place in the next few months have never been considered in a bid.

As you say - MAY be in place. Nobody knows with certainty IF they WILL be in place or WHEN or WHAT changes may yet be made. Do you even know that the airlines are fighting the changes, claiming they'll cost jobs. So tell me - exactly how many additional pilots will be needed for the MAY, IF, WHEN and exactly WHAT requirements. Come on - do you join others in knowing the unknowable?

In the new paradigm your 16 years experience will be of no value.

When that new paradigm comes to pass, you'll probably be right. Until then, what's your point other than not liking the message so you attack the messenger?

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

US Airway’s Pilots Sign 3 Year Accord

By The Captain, Staff Reporter, SafetyFirst online



Phoenix, AZ June 26th, 2011



Yesterday, US Airway’s and the US Airline Pilots Association announced that they had reached a new 3 year collective bargaining agreement covering the approximately 5,000 pilots of US Airways. In a press release, Mike Cleary, President of the pilots’ union said that “this long overdue agreement will bring the hardworking US Airways pilots up to industry standard with their peers at other carriers. We now look forward to working with management to return our carrier to the top of the industry in on-time and reliability”. US Airways pilots have long complained that their management has taken advantage of them for years, keeping them at substandard wages and work rules compared to their peers at other carriers as a result of their bankruptcy filings that ended over 6 years ago. The new agreement will end what they have dubbed “bankruptcy wages and work rules” assuming that it is ratified by the union’s membership as expected.



The announcement of an agreement seemingly came overnight, after literally years of negotiations that both parties had described as “non-productive” at best with each side accusing the other of being the road-block to a final agreement. In recent weeks, the frustration felt by the pilots over the slow pace of negotiations appears to have negatively affected the daily operations of the carrier to the point where passengers are “booking away” from the airline potentially costing the carrier hundreds of millions in future revenue. After a stellar performance in 2010 and again in the first half of 2011, when US Airway’s led the industry in on-time and completion factor the carrier recently plummeted to dead-last in on-time, flight completions and customer complaints. Last week US Airways emailed a letter to its frequent flyers apologizing for its recent poor performance while promising to fix the problems in the coming weeks. Whatever the cause of the operational melt-down, industry insiders say now that an agreement has been signed they expect that US Airways will again soon lead the industry in several performance related categories such as on-time. This can’t come soon enough for the carrier who has recently been hit with sky high fuel prices and can ill-afford a continuing significant drop in revenue as well.



The agreement still must pass a membership ratification vote by the rank and file that will occur in mid July, but off the record comments by members of US Airways management as well as union insiders suggests the vote is more of a formality at this point. The tentative agreement was recommended for ratification by the pilots’ union Board of Pilot Representatives by a vote of 9-2. The 2 dissenting votes were cast by former America West pilots who now serve on the pilots governing Board and voted against ratification in protest of the inclusion in the agreement of a seniority list that recognizes a pilots years of service with the company and has been a source of litigation by a minority group of former America West pilots. The two dissenting votes are considered to be inconsequential to the outcome of the ratification process.



(Does this intrigue you? Then forward it to your peers and get Onboard!)



The Captain

Thanks 9 your buddy the captain and his dumb ass actions helped get an injunction slapped on the dumb ass union. I would say I hope this teaches you a lesson but after 6 years of dealing with you guys I know it is impossible to teach you anything or for you guys to learn.

Your fake safety campaign has now cost every pilot at this airline. If it was just you east guys I would not care. But your east pilot action has severely harmed this pilot group and labor in general. Way to go guys, your new union in just 3.5 years has managed to have 2 federal injunctions slapped on it. How is it the most experienced longest union pilot group can be so ignorant?

Maybe next time don't forward stupid crap.

The NC judge loved all of the evidence that you guys handed the company.

Another anonymous email sent to pilots from “thecaptain.safetyfirst@hotmail.com” on
May 12, 2011 contained a fake press release (“dated” June 26, 2011), announcing that US
Airways had succumbed to a new collective bargaining agreement as a result of pilots harming
daily operations such that passengers chose other airlines:

The announcement of an agreement seemingly came overnight . . . . In recent weeks, the
frustration felt by the pilots over the slow pace of negotiations appears to have negatively
affected the daily operations of the carrier to the point where passengers are “booking
away” from the airline potentially costing the carrier hundreds of millions in future
revenue. After a stellar performance in 2010 and again in the first half of 2011, when US
Airways’ led the industry in on-time and completion factor the carrier recently
plummeted to dead-last in on-time, flight completions and customer complaints . . .
(Does this intrigue you? Then forward it to your peers and get Onboard!)

 

[Code Name V]

Missed that one by a bunch.

Better read that injunction. "Any division such as that being shown in certain councils, will not be tolerated" threats and intimidation are a no-no now. Going to have to change the way you do business.

What the ninth said was the Addington was not ripe. The DJ is not the Addington. She has already decided that it is ripe. Looks like you missed another one.

swans assumptions were as valid as anyone's. just goes to show that as with any legal case, you can't count your chickens. personally, I am interested in how the judge expects compliance? min taxi speeds are in the aim and max are in the fom. how about write up? whos job is it to determine 'minor' vs. 'major' discrepancies? do you call the chief pilot every time you have a write up and if an item is known and not written up, is it not an faa violation? how about altitudes/fuel burns? at what point are you willing to have the company or a judge determine how to fly the aircraft? My expectation is that you will see even less single engine taxi, more write ups, higher fuel burns and even lower on time stats because the opinion is just to vague. this is a no win situation for the company, however i can see how they will try to leverage it to their advantage and the west will improperly look at it as a win for themselves because anything that is anti usapa is pro west in their minds; regardless if they cut off their nose in the process.

I hope that usapa does not even try to second guess and interpret. if the judge expects compliance but is too vague to put it in writing then just copy and paste the document and leave it at that.

V

 

[john john]

swans assumptions were as valid as anyone's. just goes to show that as with any legal case, you can't count your chickens. personally, I am interested in how the judge expects compliance? min taxi speeds are in the aim and max are in the fom. how about write up? whos job is it to determine 'minor' vs. 'major' discrepancies? do you call the chief pilot every time you have a write up and if an item is known and not written up, is it not an faa violation? how about altitudes/fuel burns? at what point are you willing to have the company or a judge determine how to fly the aircraft? My expectation is that you will see even less single engine taxi, more write ups, higher fuel burns and even lower on time stats because the opinion is just to vague. this is a no win situation for the company, however i can see how they will try to leverage it to their advantage and the west will improperly look at it as a win for themselves because anything that is anti usapa is pro west in their minds; regardless if they cut off their nose in the process.

I hope that usapa does not even try to second guess and interpret. if the judge expects compliance but is too vague to put it in writing then just copy and paste the document and leave it at that.

V

When in question call management that is the HP way

 

[Keroseneuser]

swans assumptions were as valid as anyone's. just goes to show that as with any legal case, you can't count your chickens. personally, I am interested in how the judge expects compliance? min taxi speeds are in the aim and max are in the fom. how about write up? whos job is it to determine 'minor' vs. 'major' discrepancies? do you call the chief pilot every time you have a write up and if an item is known and not written up, is it not an faa violation? how about altitudes/fuel burns? at what point are you willing to have the company or a judge determine how to fly the aircraft? My expectation is that you will see even less single engine taxi, more write ups, higher fuel burns and even lower on time stats because the opinion is just to vague. this is a no win situation for the company, however i can see how they will try to leverage it to their advantage and the west will improperly look at it as a win for themselves because anything that is anti usapa is pro west in their minds; regardless if they cut off their nose in the process.

I hope that usapa does not even try to second guess and interpret. if the judge expects compliance but is too vague to put it in writing then just copy and paste the document and leave it at that.

V

Was thinking about that also. The line "Not write up all maint. items" as it is printed in the version listed on here is a violation of FARs. So only option I know of is to call maint control on every cass message or descrepency to see if we should write it up. If they say no, then have a hard copy sent to the aircraft from a mgmt type confirming that the company knew of the issue and instructed the crew to not record it in the logs. Only way I know of to try to stay out of trouble with the FAA and not violate the injunction. At least as worded that we have seen so far. Interested to see the full one come out from official sources.

I have some friends in a couple of different FSDO's. Going to give them a call and see what the FAA's take is on it. Just to make sure I don't violate myself by trying to comply with the injunction. I will not pick up a violation just to comply with the injunction. So I guess document everything, and request hard copys from the company on every thing they don't want written up.

 

[Captain Underpants]

I've got an even better one for you. Under the east system, if there's one vacancy and the bottom active pilot is awarded that vacancy, in theory every active east pilot could move to a new position. So in theory one vacancy bidder could trigger 1500-2000 training events (obviously some movement would be only base changes on same seat/equipment).

So why don't we go with that? Hire 40 per week to cover the training float...

Seriously, though, there's so much wrong with your theory that there's just no use trying to explain it all. Get back to me when you've had 16 years experience doing it. Believe me or not, it really doesn't matter since I'm not the one that'll be disappointed when my expectations aren't met.

Jim

Jim,

You may be right but how about a friendly challenge to test my "theory" vs. your 16 years of experience. I predict USAirways will have to hire 25 pilots per month East on average starting mid 2012 and lasting for 5 years for a total of 1500+ new hires. Post your hiring prediction and we will see who comes the closest.

East hiring is important because it goes to the heart of the problem with Nicolau and the fairness of DOH so let's see what happens. (Hint: you will see a continuation of the East/West hiring/recall trend already established during the last 5 years).


underpants

 

[CallawayGolf]

The east pilots are proving once again that they cannot overcome their pathological distortions and accept the plain and simple truth. The injunction was issued against USAPA and the east pilots to stop the illegal work slowdown campaign. Compliance with the judge's temporary injunction is exceedingly simple: stop intentionally engaging in any and all acts which serve only to negatively affect airline operations. Do that and operational data will return to normal which will prevent the company or the judge from imposing more punitive consequences.

USAPA will appear before Judge Conrad and explain the specific steps they will take to ensure full compliance with the injunction (unless they are even more out of touch with reality than I thought). The public and the confidential messages should both serve to convince all east pilots that any such illegal slowdown tactics will be tracked by the company and will only lead to more harmful consequences , including termination of individuals who don’t get the message. If USAPA and the east pilots will do this, then there will be no problem with showing compliance to the judge.

All of this banter about what this means to the individual pilot who hasn’t participated in the illegal campaign shows a total lack of comprehension as to what has really been happening on the east. Maintaining the status quo means performing your job the way you always have, minus any attempt to harm the company with trivial or bogus actions that were not the norm prior to USAPA coming on the property. This is all USAPA’s fault. Their actions and/or inaction in the face of the company telling them there was a concerted slowdown effort underway have caused this, not the company and not the judge. I suggest you accept those facts and move on. Otherwise we can only hope that the company terminates those who didn’t get the message or who have swung the pendulum over so far that they are no longer operating in a safe and responsible manner out of a supposed fear of violating the injunction. The rock and a hard place pinch you feel was caused by your union and your narcissistic peers; no one else is to blame.

 

[cleardirect]

Was thinking about that also. The line "Not write up all maint. items" as it is printed in the version listed on here is a violation of FARs. So only option I know of is to call maint control on every cass message or descrepency to see if we should write it up. If they say no, then have a hard copy sent to the aircraft from a mgmt type confirming that the company knew of the issue and instructed the crew to not record it in the logs. Only way I know of to try to stay out of trouble with the FAA and not violate the injunction. At least as worded that we have seen so far. Interested to see the full one come out from official sources.

I have some friends in a couple of different FSDO's. Going to give them a call and see what the FAA's take is on it. Just to make sure I don't violate myself by trying to comply with the injunction. I will not pick up a violation just to comply with the injunction. So I guess document everything, and request hard copys from the company on every thing they don't want written up.

As expected. You guys are to ignorant or play ignorant. You guys go ahead and play your little games with the company and a federal judge. Instead of calling the FAA how about calling some of your buddies at AA, UAL and ask them what an injunction means and how to comply.

But you smart guys go ahead and piss on that injunction. It just gave the company unfettered authority to fire any east pilots they want. You will not get your job back because you would have violated a federal injunction not some company polity. The judge sees very clearly that usapa's safety campaign was all about the contract not about safety. Talk tough on the web boards but my guess is the scared rabbits on the east will snap to and the ops numbers get really good.

Let's wait and see what the usapa lawyers have to tell you guys. I hope it is in small and simple words so you all understand. You guys just did untold damage to this pilot group and labor in general. Cleary and all the blind followers of usapa demonstrated that they are incompetent, dangerous and incapable of understand the RLA or following legal advice. If you guys are not pissed off at Cleary, and the safety guy you people are fools.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Tell me the exact effect of the final version of the new flight time/crew rest regs and when they'll go into effect and I'll take a stab at it.

Based on today's rules and assuming the fleet remains static (+/- 1 or 2), my off the top of my head guess (not having looked at the exact number of retirements lately) is an average of 120-130/year after an initial 20 for float and 75 for 332's replacing 737/A320's (ETOPS needs more pilots/plane) - call it 700 total over 2012-2016 for a round number.

Jim

 

[Code Name V]

As expected. You guys are to ignorant or play ignorant. You guys go ahead and play your little games with the company and a federal judge. Instead of calling the FAA how about calling some of your buddies at AA, UAL and ask them what an injunction means and how to comply.

But you smart guys go ahead and piss on that injunction. It just gave the company unfettered authority to fire any east pilots they want. You will not get your job back because you would have violated a federal injunction not some company polity. The judge sees very clearly that usapa's safety campaign was all about the contract not about safety. Talk tough on the web boards but my guess is the scared rabbits on the east will snap to and the ops numbers get really good.

Let's wait and see what the usapa lawyers have to tell you guys. I hope it is in small and simple words so you all understand. You guys just did untold damage to this pilot group and labor in general. Cleary and all the blind followers of usapa demonstrated that they are incompetent, dangerous and incapable of understand the RLA or following legal advice. If you guys are not pissed off at Cleary, and the safety guy you people are fools.

still haven't answered the question. this really means nothing at all. the company requested an 'emergency' injunction. this must not have been much of an emergency in the eyes of the judge as it took over a month to come out and there are no damages. clearly the company would like to find guys going out of their way to hurt the enterprise. this however is quite different than not going the 'extra' mile that people might have done before. that means that all of the maintenance items that 'might' have been overlooked until arriving at a maintenance base (and a direct faa violation) will no longer be ignored. it also means that people will continue to follow the foms (as written) and not 'interpret' them to benefit the company. this means knowing the fom ver batim. not answering your phone when not required, not doing checklists 'on the run', flying at altitudes that are comfortable instead of cost efficient, and the list goes on.

this organization has fostered a spirit of such ill will over the years that they now must resort to legal methods to try to force people to do what they would gladly have done if they were dealing with an ethical group and felt part of a team. this company represents everything that is morally wrong which is why they consistently come out in the bottom of the barrel in 'good' companies to work for. the lack of a team spirit coupled with the years of abuse will continue to result in a deterioration of the operation and the legal system is not the way to fix it. they have some very serious problems on their hands and it will continue to erode until such time as the management team is completely replaced.

V

 

[cleardirect]

still haven't answered the question. this really means nothing at all. the company requested an 'emergency' injunction. this must not have been much of an emergency in the eyes of the judge as it took over a month to come out and there are no damages. clearly the company would like to find guys going out of their way to hurt the enterprise. this however is quite different than not going the 'extra' mile that people might have done before. that means that all of the maintenance items that 'might' have been overlooked until arriving at a maintenance base (and a direct faa violation) will no longer be ignored. it also means that people will continue to follow the foms (as written) and not 'interpret' them to benefit the company. this means knowing the fom ver batim. not answering your phone when not required, not doing checklists 'on the run', flying at altitudes that are comfortable instead of cost efficient, and the list goes on.

this organization has fostered a spirit of such ill will over the years that they now must resort to legal methods to try to force people to do what they would gladly have done if they were dealing with an ethical group and felt part of a team.

Can you say RICO?

this company (the union) represents everything that is morally wrong which is why they consistently come out in the bottom of the barrel in 'good' companies to work for.

the lack of a team spirit coupled with the years of abuse will continue to result in a deterioration of the operation and the legal system is not the way to fix it.

Are you sure you are not talking about usapa?

they have some very serious problems on their hands and it will continue to erode until such time as the management team is completely replaced.

Are you really sure you are not talking about usapa?

 

[LSS]

V

You nailed it!

 

[BoeingBoy]

V

You nailed it!

Ah, up to #4 that can't admit that there's an elephant in the room. How predictable is that?

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

this really means nothing at all.

V, I've got to disagree with you. This DOES mean something and it is a big hammer. No matter what happened this summer the company was able to convince a federal judge that USAPA and it's pilots participated in an illegal job action. We have an injunction in place to stop it. If the company's numbers turn south again(funny, they have been improving even before yesterday) the company will most likely will go back to the judge asking for damages. Damages that this union cannot afford after spending all our dues on lawyers already.

This is not the battleground to be on because we will die here. It's time for our leadership to be honest with it's pilots. Fighting the Nic and trying to get a contract are mutually exclusive. When we went down the road we did, it put a contract out of reach until THAT fight is over. Period.

I don't like the injunction. I don't like how it is worded and I think it can be damaging for ALL pilots and if we ever bend an airplane again, it might come back to haunt the company. Nothing I can do about it.

 

[Move2CLT]

See V, you can't even get the smarter easties to agree with you.