US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Captain Underpants]

Tell me the exact effect of the final version of the new flight time/crew rest regs and when they'll go into effect and I'll take a stab at it.

Based on today's rules and assuming the fleet remains static (+/- 1 or 2), my off the top of my head guess (not having looked at the exact number of retirements lately) is an average of 120-130/year after an initial 20 for float and 75 for 332's replacing 737/A320's (ETOPS needs more pilots/plane) - call it 700 total over 2012-2016 for a round number.

Jim

Ok then you project around 140/yr. for a total of 700 East vacancies to new hires over 5 years. Since that would not even cover age 65 attrition you must be assuming ether a change to the FAA mandated retirement age to around age 68 or another bankruptcy with an abrogation of the pilot contracts.

Remember your bid closing experience was over a period of time that included massive negative variables including contract productivity changes, reduction of fleet types from 14 to 4, multiple base closings, negative growth, and bankruptcies etc.

Your numbers imply around a 3 to 1 ratio of net vacancies East to West. The minimum possible ratio with just age 65 attrition is 4 to 1. Just a conservative estimate with other projected variables over the next five years would be closer to an actual 6 to 1 net vacancy ratio. The actual East/West net vacancy ratio for the last 5 years has been around 8 to 1. Of course you know to maintain the pre-merger relative positions would require a 2 to 1 ratio.

I still don't see how it is possible use any kind of relative position integration method in this merger without generating an 8 figure windfall for the junior side.

Your 140/yr. vs. my 300/yr. so one or both of us will be wrong. Thanks for posting your projections and we'll see how it goes.

underpants

 

[Claxon]

The upside is when the terminations begin for those who don't believe the courts or Management can actually single them out in the sea of statistical data. The malcontents who have caused the slowdown and the resulting injunction now have a choice to either fall in line and forget about trying to get the DOH cramdown contract or to continue their illegal conduct and terminate their careers.

The upside begins when the traveling public learns more and more about the problems of Franke Air. Between the CEO who is a convicted lawbreaker, with no regard for women and children on the roads, and the reckless behavior of its' management- the airline is playing fast and loose. Franke would be so proud of Mr Parker, and his disciples. The new CEO has followed in his fathers' footsteps closely. There was a choice to be made, early on. Run a good airline like Herb Kelleher, be loved by your employees, make millions for all, treat your passengers with dignity, or........Play fast and loose with your employees. Pay them little benefits, create ill will among your employees, divide your employees, spend time in jail, treat customers with little regard. The disciple of Franke has made his choice, the low road. Amazing, the high road is so much better for everyone, but Franke is happy. His head disciple has taken the same path he did. There is no good from this Callaway disciple. You must not have been a good prospect for another company. You must have been one of the early Franke chosen. You take the exact road Franke did. Be proud. You work and help direct one of the least admired companies in America. This, is your legacy. Callaway, are you embarrassed to tell your neighbors where you work? You should be.






Top 20
No. 1s
Full list
Best & Worst
Companies
States
Industries
Global
Best & worst: Innovation
Apple Computer is the most admired company for innovation this year, up from No. 3 last year.
Most admired
Least admired

Rank Company Industry rank
1 US Airways Group 10
2 UAL 9
3 CSX 4
4 Tenet Healthcare 10
5 Dillard's 10
6 Kmart Holding 9
7 U.S. Postal Service 5
8 Asbury Automotive Group 7
9 Qwest Communications 10
10 Beverly E

 

[BoeingBoy]

Ok then you project around 140/yr. for a total of 700 East vacancies to new hires over 5 years. Since that would not even cover age 65 attrition you must be assuming ether a change to the FAA mandated retirement age to around age 68 or another bankruptcy with an abrogation of the pilot contracts.

No, apparently I mis-remembered the numbers I posted a while back - the ones for attrition that left a vacancy behind as that is all that matters. I thought it was under 700. Total attrition numbers are meaningless. As I said, that was off the top of my head. I assumed nothing other than as stated - current flt time/rest requirements and a static fleet number. What any change in FAR's or fleet means is an unknown to me as we sit here today, so impossible to put a number to (although I'm sure the airlines have run the numbers for various scenerios).

Jim

 

[Move2CLT]

The upside begins when the traveling public learns more and more about the problems of Franke Air. Between the CEO who is a convicted lawbreaker, with no regard for women and children on the roads, and the reckless behavior of its' management- the airline is playing fast and loose. Franke would be so proud of Mr Parker, and his disciples. The new CEO has followed in his fathers' footsteps closely. There was a choice to be made, early on. Run a good airline like Herb Kelleher, be loved by your employees, make millions for all, treat your passengers with dignity, or........Play fast and loose with your employees. Pay them little benefits, create ill will among your employees, divide your employees, spend time in jail, treat customers with little regard. The disciple of Franke has made his choice, the low road. Amazing, the high road is so much better for everyone, but Franke is happy. His head disciple has taken the same path he did. There is no good from this Callaway disciple. You must not have been a good prospect for another company. You must have been one of the early Franke chosen. You take the exact road Franke did. Be proud. You work and help direct one of the least admired companies in America. This, is your legacy. Callaway, are you embarrassed to tell your neighbors where you work? You should be.






Top 20
No. 1s
Full list
Best & Worst
Companies
States
Industries
Global
Best & worst: Innovation
Apple Computer is the most admired company for innovation this year, up from No. 3 last year.
Most admired
Least admired

Rank Company Industry rank
1 US Airways Group 10
2 UAL 9
3 CSX 4
4 Tenet Healthcare 10
5 Dillard's 10
6 Kmart Holding 9
7 U.S. Postal Service 5
8 Asbury Automotive Group 7
9 Qwest Communications 10
10 Beverly E

Electro-shock therapy wearing off?

 

[Keroseneuser]

The injunction shouldn't make any difference if you do the job you were trained to do. Much is being made of the judges inclusion of "all maintenance items" but read that carefully. The problem from the start was some pilots thinking that they could play games with impunity when nothing could be further from the truth. The company can easily tell who's writing up unnessary items and who isn't or who's waiting to call maintenance till just before departure to cause a delay To paraphrase what I've said before, if you're confident that you're doing the right thing for the right reasons, you should not feel uncomfortable being called to the CP's office to explain it.

Jim

What is the right thing? We all know mgmt. has no problems sending a lie in writing to crews to get them to fly an illegal operation. And the fact that it was written is what saved the crew from violation.

I will just get it in writing anytime there is an irregular op or delay that affects the on time status. Problem solved and a/c keeps moving.

 

[Claxon]

Electro-shock therapy wearing off?

How does the reality of working for the number one in Forbes Magazine 2011 LEAST ADMIRED COMPANIES IN AMERICA sit? Are electro shock treatments available to numb the sensation of despair? You too are the reason Franke Air is so bad and despised. Were you also a Southwest reject?




Full list
Best & Worst
Companies
States
Industries
Global
Best & worst: Innovation
Apple Computer is the most admired company for innovation this year, up from No. 3 last year.
Most admired
Least admired

Rank Company Industry rank
1 US Airways Group 10
2 UAL 9
3 CSX 4
4 Tenet Healthcare 10
5 Dillard's 10
6 Kmart Holding 9
7 U.S. Postal Service 5
8 Asbury Automotive Group 7
9 Qwest Communications 10
10 Beverly Enterprises 9

 

[Move2CLT]

Despair? I'm not feeling any despair. And you seem to be the only one bringing this #### up.

Few more zaps for you should do the trick.

 

[BoeingBoy]

What is the right thing?

If you don't know, nobody can teach you. I've met very few airline pilots that didn't have "the right thing to do" almost built into their DNA.

Jim

 

[Keroseneuser]

If you don't know, nobody can teach you. I've met very few airline pilots that didn't have "the right thing to do" almost built into their DNA.

Jim

Ok.

From the list below what is the right thing? Answer go or no go.

1. T/O at night with an a/c that you know is going to double overtemp on climbout.
2. T/O in an a/c that on the previous 2 legs had a bad flutter during flap retract.
3. T/O in an a/c that the trim indication on the tail is 2 full units off what the cockpit is showing.
4. T/O with a known inop number one radio. (Non MEL'd)
5. T/O to the islands non etops due to mel. Made legal to launch by a reroute over island chain that is buried in storm line. Penetrate the line to destination or go around, go around it enters ETOPS zone.

As a retired Captain, what would your call be? Go or No Go?

 

[luvthe9]

Ok.

From the list below what is the right thing? Answer go or no go.

1. T/O at night with an a/c that you know is going to double overtemp on climbout.
2. T/O in an a/c that on the previous 2 legs had a bad flutter during flap retract.
3. T/O in an a/c that the trim indication on the tail is 2 full units off what the cockpit is showing.
4. T/O with a known inop number one radio. (Non MEL'd)
5. T/O to the islands non etops due to mel. Made legal to launch by a reroute over island chain that is buried in storm line. Penetrate the line to destination or go around, go around it enters ETOPS zone.

As a retired Captain, what would your call be? Go or No Go?

He would put his crew and passengers in jeopardy and take the plane, that's obvious.

 

[A320 Driver]

Ok.

From the list below what is the right thing? Answer go or no go.

1. T/O at night with an a/c that you know is going to double overtemp on climbout.
2. T/O in an a/c that on the previous 2 legs had a bad flutter during flap retract.
3. T/O in an a/c that the trim indication on the tail is 2 full units off what the cockpit is showing.
4. T/O with a known inop number one radio. (Non MEL'd)
5. T/O to the islands non etops due to mel. Made legal to launch by a reroute over island chain that is buried in storm line. Penetrate the line to destination or go around, go around it enters ETOPS zone.

As a retired Captain, what would your call be? Go or No Go?

Judge Conrad says you have to go. It's legal, right? (since you are not allowed by injunction to write up everything. Maybe he will give us a note to give to the FAA) If you don't take it, some of these West guys will.

Driver

 

[CallawayGolf]

Judge Conrad says you have to go. It's legal, right? (since you are not allowed by injunction to write up everything. Maybe he will give us a note to give to the FAA) If you don't take it, some of these West guys will.

Driver

Always the victims. Never the perpetrator. Never the victor.

Actions have consequences and USAPA using safety as a fallacious front for a illegal work action caused the injunction. Judge Conrad isn't ordering anyone to fly an unsafe aircraft; his order demands that USAPA cease and desist from its illegal conduct. if you can't figure out the difference you need to turn in your wings and find something to do that you can comprehend a little more clearly without endangering lives.

 

[crazystnic]

The injunction shouldn't make any difference if you do the job you were trained to do. Much is being made of the judges inclusion of "all maintenance items" but read that carefully. The problem from the start was some pilots thinking that they could play games with impunity when nothing could be further from the truth. The company can easily tell who's writing up unnessary items and who isn't or who's waiting to call maintenance till just before departure to cause a delay To paraphrase what I've said before, if you're confident that you're doing the right thing for the right reasons, you should not feel uncomfortable being called to the CP's office to explain it.

Jim

You have no freakin clue what is going on here now.. this is not the way it was when you were here . so stop trying to be an expert.
I know someone who was called in.. and when he tried to explain he got the finger in his face an stop... they did not want to listen.....
that was your CP in PHL. beginning with a Y.... he wanted to hear nothing.. so stop trying to think you know what is going on here.

 

[A320 Driver]

Actions have consequences and USAPA using safety as a fallacious front for a illegal work action caused the injunction. Judge Conrad isn't ordering anyone to fly an unsafe aircraft; his order demands that USAPA cease and desist from its illegal conduct. if you can't figure out the difference you need to turn in your wings and find something to do that you can comprehend a little more clearly without endangering lives.

If it's legal in the company's eyes, it flies...or else. You will see.

Driver <_<

 

[Pi brat]

If you don't know, nobody can teach you. I've met very few airline pilots that didn't have "the right thing to do" almost built into their DNA.

Jim

Hey Jim,

I know it's supper time and we will have to wait for Momma to release you to the computer to answer this and my other question, but I might as well put it in the queue. The judge wrote this:

"While there is no prohibition against writing up any and all maintenance
items, including very minor items (e.g., broken passenger light, a non-essential placard), pilots
ordinarily exercise their authority and discretion to not write up deferrable minor items when it
could produce a delay or cancellation of a flight."

Would you agree with the judge? The reason I ask is because I have been searching the regs, my FOM and A/C handbook and I don't see that "discretion". I see a very defined system of when and how I am to write up "discrepancies". As a matter of fact, I guess USAPA didn't do a very good job of educating the judge about our CML, and NEF, where things like a "broken passenger light" are supposed to be entered without a mechanic sign off. I guess we couldn't expect the company to educate the judge in it's own procedures, right?

If pilots usually do it, does that make it right? If it is not right, does the company have a responsibility to try and get it's pilots to do it right?