US Pilots Labor Discussion

[SparrowHawk]

Put all your money on lucky 13 and throw the dice!!

Ignoring the posturing of our wayward pilot and erstwhile self appointed expert, consider this:

There is a reason Corporations settle out of court whenever possible. Once you get lawyers involved several potentially bad things happen.

One is the cost of litigation will choke even the deepest pockets over time.

Two, going back to time, you'd best have plenty of it as courts move at a glacial pace.

Three, the outcome is never a slam dunk, done deal. Judges are no different then normal people. You can see 3000 pages here of opinions. NONE of which matter as the Judge or in this situation, Judges have yet to rule.

The minute the first Lawyer was contacted this whole thing went down a financial rabbit hole with the only people not cashing in being the Pilots. DP, SK, RI and the like got their bonus payments, The Lawyers billed hundreds of hours. Hell even US Aviation got some money as their ad rates went up from increased activity. All the while the Pilots paid and paid and paid.

Despite all the time, money and hot air expensed to this very day, NO ONE can say what the ultimate outcome will be. What if AA goes tits up and US puts in an offer but the deal requires USAPA to agree on a DOH seniority list Integration or no deal? Then what?

Sadly the one thing missing was a visionary Union Leader that could have taken a good look ahead and then forged a deal knowing full well a merger or sale was likely.

 

[Black Swan]

The misunderstanding by East pilots is that if USAPA wins the DJ case DOH still may not exist. If seniority is negotiable like crew meals, which I believe it is not, than the union would have to negotiate with management for a seniority list. This negotiation could use negotiating capital by the NAC. What would and how much would USAPA be willing to give up to obtain DOH? Could management use seniority negotiations; along with the Preliminary Injunction, as a discipline tool to make problem Captains Co-pilots? Could pilots who create problems for the company in the cockpit, with Crew Scheduling or on message boards have their seniority reduced as a discipline tool?

If USAPA wins the DJ lawsuit it still must get management to agree to DOH. But, let's not forget Judge Silver said in her motion to deny USAPA's petition to dismiss the DJ case, "No question the [9th] embraced the issue that there was harm to the West Pilots."

Meanwhile, the merry go round goes round-and-round with US Airways' pilots the lowest in the industry with increased pressure to hold down labor costs.

According to the Reuters, "Airlines industry wide are closely watching the outcome of the American negotiations and where the two sides might find common ground. The head of APA's rival union, Lee Moak of the Air Line Pilots Association, told Reuters on Tuesday that any pilot agreement at American could impact talks at the other big carriers. Officials at United Airlines and US Airways Group Inc said in response they were watching events at American closely."

Click here to read the story.

I believe if AMR extracts large concessions from APA and remains independent that is likely going to weigh on new contract talks at Delta, United Continental, and US Airways. With pattern bargaining and USAPA's inexperienced NAC; coupled with Professional Negotiator Scott Peterson's law firm (Seham, Seham, Meltz, & Peterson) no longer working for USAPA, the union's negotiators may have once again missed an opportunity to negotiate a new contract. Thus, US Airways' pilots could be working under C2004/LOA 93 for a long time once the DJ lawsuit is settled. Another missed opportunity by the UELs?

However, I believe starting on December 1 in U.S. District Court, the next hearing will be held that will lead to the Nicolau Award being implemented. What will USAPA have accomplished since April 18, 2008? Nothing except hurting all of US Airways' stakeholders: Stockholders, Employees, Customers, and all pilots - both those based east of the Mississippi River and in PHX.

I believe Kasher is going to be the Crasher, of the LOA 93 party on the 40th floor. Lights out. I also believe you really don't have a clue as to what a judge can impose, or not. Especially telling a labor organization, how they have to run their internal business. Let's have a little refresher, since you and Aqua still don't get it......Again, the 9th Court of Appeals ruling......



"Thus, even under the district court’s injunc-
tion mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated."




"Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3 "



So we see, it is so easy and misleading for one pilot who claims to be unbiased,and factual to throw out the notion the Nicolau will be the list, when the 9th Court of Appeals, San Francisco rules contrary to same pilot. Who is one to believe? An unbiased pilot, or the ruling court? Some might say the court that already ruled might carry more weight, but the unbiased fellow persists in effectuating fairy tales.

 

[Move2CLT]

Final draft of Kasher's decision is going out in the next few days. Expect it to be leaked shortly thereafter.

Activate the east CIRP again.

 

[Move2CLT]

I believe, However I believe, I believe, insert quote by F. SCOTT FITZ, check his bio out, ouch! Highly lauded as a writer, Fitzgerald was often mired in debt because of his and Zelda's lavish lifestyle, living beyond their means,The Fitzgeralds honeymooned at the Biltmore Hotel but were asked to leave because of what would become a pattern, their notoriously raucous parties. They settled at a home in Westport, Connecticut and continued the lifestyle of the rich and famous, constantly entertaining. Zelda was flirtatious, Fitzgerald was jealous, and it was the beginning of a turbulent life together, Zelda embraced the flapper lifestyle dressing provocatively and smoking cigarettes, and she and her husband enjoyed the free-thinking, hedonistic pursuits of the roaring twenties when the post-war American economy was booming. Although it was a time of prohibition, there was no deficit of alcohol in the Fitzgerald household. Sounds Like a great guy to quote also!

We got all that back in high school.

 

[Black Swan]

Final draft of Kasher's decision is going out in the next few days. Expect it to be leaked shortly thereafter.

Activate the east CIRP again.

You better hope you won, because there will be nobody on the East interested in the Nicolau ever again if they get that raise. And the pressure from the West pilots who are being denied the 76 and 330 flying by the Nic Angry Junior F/O s are going to overrule the minority on this board. Leonidas will fold like a cheap beach chair.

 

[Zone5]

I believe, However I believe, I believe, insert quote by F. SCOTT FITZ, check his bio out, ouch! Highly lauded as a writer, Fitzgerald was often mired in debt because of his and Zelda's lavish lifestyle, living beyond their means,The Fitzgeralds honeymooned at the Biltmore Hotel but were asked to leave because of what would become a pattern, their notoriously raucous parties. They settled at a home in Westport, Connecticut and continued the lifestyle of the rich and famous, constantly entertaining. Zelda was flirtatious, Fitzgerald was jealous, and it was the beginning of a turbulent life together, Zelda embraced the flapper lifestyle dressing provocatively and smoking cigarettes, and she and her husband enjoyed the free-thinking, hedonistic pursuits of the roaring twenties when the post-war American economy was booming. Although it was a time of prohibition, there was no deficit of alcohol in the Fitzgerald household. Sounds Like a great guy to quote also!

Sounds like a fun couple to hang out with to me! One of the things that has always bothered me about the "pious", is the thought of potentially having to spend eternity with them, if they are correct about their destiny and if I were to be so unfortunate to have to accompany them. How much harp music could one listen to for eternity?

seajay

 

[Black Swan]

Ignoring the posturing of our wayward pilot and erstwhile self appointed expert, consider this:

There is a reason Corporations settle out of court whenever possible. Once you get lawyers involved several potentially bad things happen.

One is the cost of litigation will choke even the deepest pockets over time.

Two, going back to time, you'd best have plenty of it as courts move at a glacial pace.

Three, the outcome is never a slam dunk, done deal. Judges are no different then normal people. You can see 3000 pages here of opinions. NONE of which matter as the Judge or in this situation, Judges have yet to rule.

The minute the first Lawyer was contacted this whole thing went down a financial rabbit hole with the only people not cashing in being the Pilots. DP, SK, RI and the like got their bonus payments, The Lawyers billed hundreds of hours. Hell even US Aviation got some money as their ad rates went up from increased activity. All the while the Pilots paid and paid and paid.

Despite all the time, money and hot air expensed to this very day, NO ONE can say what the ultimate outcome will be. What if AA goes tits up and US puts in an offer but the deal requires USAPA to agree on a DOH seniority list Integration or no deal? Then what?

Sadly the one thing missing was a visionary Union Leader that could have taken a good look ahead and then forged a deal knowing full well a merger or sale was likely.

There are no deals with Parker. Nobody wants a merger with AA. What benefit is that to anyone? All the East pilots want is the Kasher cash, and the rest can go up in smoke. There are no deals with anybody worth doing. Kasher, and the 3% each year is fine with us. I just hope AA makes it through all of this without Parker getting involved with anything. He just got another ticket out there in Tempe. The charge? FAILURE TO MERGE........

 

[Move2CLT]

You better hope you won, because there will be nobody on the East interested in the Nicolau ever again if they get that raise. And the pressure from the West pilots who are being denied the 76 and 330 flying by the Nic Angry Junior F/O s are going to overrule the minority on this board. Leonidas will fold like a cheap beach chair.

I don't have to hope. The draft decision went against USAPA.

And what you completely fail to understand is that you wouldn't get a dime if you won until a remedy was discussed. That could take a few years alone.

No, you guys are LOA93 for the long term no matter how the decision would go.

And Leonidas is a strong as ever.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

We got all that back in high school.

"True terror" is to wake up one morning and discover that some of your high school class was flying for AWA!

 

[Move2CLT]

There are no deals with Parker. Nobody wants a merger with AA. What benefit is that to anyone? All the East pilots want is the Kasher cash, and the rest can go up in smoke. There are no deals with anybody worth doing. Kasher, and the 3% each year is fine with us. I just hope AA makes it through all of this without Parker getting involved with anything. He just got another ticket out there in Tempe. The charge? FAILURE TO MERGE........

The charge was dismissed on account of Parker keeping the easties under his thumb and having them publically beg for parity at the crew news

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I don't have to hope. The draft decision went against USAPA.

And what you completely fail to understand is that you wouldn't get a dime if you won until a remedy was discussed. That could take a few years alone.

No, you guys are LOA93 for the long term no matter how the decision would go.

And Leonidas is a strong as ever.

Conflicted aren't we!

 

[Move2CLT]

"True terror" is to wake up one morning and discover that some of your high school class was flying for AWA!

OK, I added "duh" to the front of his sentence and it still didn't make sense. :huh:

 

[Move2CLT]

Conflicted aren't we!

How do you mean MnM? And take it slowly.

 

[luvn737s]

I would think the company would want to release the Kasher verdict as soon as they could so that the kids could throw their tantrum, be reminded of the injunction, and then pull themselves together before the Holidays.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I would think the company would want to release the Kasher verdict as soon as they could so that the kids could throw their tantrum...

I would think the opposite - it could be seen as gloating for the company to release a USAPA loss first. Since a company win would change nothing from the company's perspective, give USAPA some time to admit it's latest loss first.

Jim