US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvn737s]

And as for complaining, that's not what I do. I guide. I guide these easties toward the truth and the path forward.

No, you refuse to do the hard work of taking an opportunity to capitalize on the failure of USAPA to build a coalition of like-minded east pilots who can undo the damage of Cleary and company.

Guide? I'd rather you just go away. You're an embarrassment to the west pilot group.

 

[luvn737s]

Lay off luvn737....he is entitled to his opinion without you blather......especially YOUR blather! No one respects your opinion.

Unless you are among those willing to jettison the failed policies of USAPA and forge an alliance with the west which would probably make you unpopular with your buddies that cooked up this USAPA scheme, then I'd rather not have your defense.

 

[nevergiveup]

Your version of "loyalty to the profession" requires west captains to relinquish their seats to East guys who worked for 2years and were then furloughed for six with absolutely no hope of return barring the merger. The West pilots don't see through any B.S. Except for the moronic Horsesh** that the fake scab union keeps spewing. Take a good hard look at where your dream union is today. Put aside your all consuming hatred and bitterness and try to view the situation for what it really is. USAPA as envisioned by the back-of-the-van-crew is not even recognizable. Millions upon millions of dues money flushed on an impossible mission to re-write history. You die hard Easties were snookered by a scum bag lawyer, who in all likelihood, will be suing USAPA shortly. How many active lawsuits is that? I've lost count.

Honestly. No offense intended, but as a group, you guys are the most bitter angry group of people ive ever met. You seeth hatred, venom, and misery. Why? For $123.00/Hr? You all had real leverage back in 07. Now you've got absolutely nothing...which is why absolutely nothing is going to change. Some of you actually want Others to believe that the total failure of the union is actually a victory. That's crazy. Bat sh*t crazy...Claxon size crazy.

There is a way out of this. But it will take real, no B.S. Leadership from the East. It will take a cold, hard realist with the thickest skin and no small measure of bravery to deliver the unfortunate news to his East constituents. The news is this: "IT'S NOT 1983!!" adapt to reality or die bitter, miserable, angry, distanced A-holes. The kind of people nobody misses after their gone. Isn't hating Ones life exhausting? It sure looks like it from the faces I see in PHL...which explains why our Grievance person looks 20 years older than reality I guess. I'd rather just enjoy my life and move on. Not you guys. You've convinced yourselves that a wasted life is a worthy cause.

If the furloughed pilot had no career expectation, then nor did Captain Hogg nor any of the top 500. Career expectations, one of the greatest myths in life and aviation!

 

[Keroseneuser]

Your version of "loyalty to the profession" requires west captains to relinquish their seats to East guys who worked for 2years and were then furloughed for six with absolutely no hope of return barring the merger.

You should look at the seniority list before making statements like that. Like somebody else said, even under DOH nobody that fits the above description would be senior to any west Captain.

However there are a lot of east captains that would be junior to west f/o's hired more than a decade after them under NIC. Look at the NIC list side by side with a list that shows date of hire. There are a lot of 1986 thru 88 hires that would be junior to west guys hired in 99 and 2000 and later in some cases.

Where DOH and NIC get real sticky for the 99 to present hires is when the attrition from retirements is factored in. The east has far more than the west does for the next 15 years as was covered a while back on this thread.

There are valid arguments on both sides for why NIC or DOH is not good for one group or another, but the argument you used that I quoted is not one of them. On a quick look at the list check out the numbers around a pilot with the last name of Warren, a 1986 hire and then look where they fall under the NIC list. These were 737 300 Captains at time of merger.

Edit: Also there were no 1986 and 1987 guys furloughed at the time of the merger.

 

[Phoenix]

I thought you had me on ignore breeze. Nine out of Ten doctors recommend you put me on ignore but the Motion Picture Association of America has not yet decided on a rating.

 

[Keroseneuser]

If the furloughed pilot had no career expectation, then nor did Captain Hogg nor any of the top 500. Career expectations, one of the greatest myths in life and aviation!

Then why do I keep hearing west pilots complain about how many airplanes AWA had on order and how they were supposed to be Captains in 4 years? I agree that you cannot base a merged list on airplanes that you were supposed to get or whatever, but don't turn around and try to use that same argument when it suits you.

For me the only valid arguments that should be used are: How many seats each side brought to the merger, and each groups age based attrition. Everything else is speculation.

Examples of speculation are, growth, liquidation, what if's etc. DOH is a windfall for some east pilots, NIC is a windfall for all west pilots. If the east didn't have 3/4 of their list retiring in the next 15 years this really would not be an issue. I believe the numbers were 2728 out of 3600 east gone in 15 years and 785 of 1800 west gone in 15. When you run the list under NIC most of the 2728 east retirement seats go to west pilots. That is why this will not be worked out by anything other than the court system at this point. The east will do everything to protect the attrition and the west will do everything to get the east retirement seats.

We are where we are until a court says otherwise. That is the simple fact we are operating under. Every east pilot knows that and probably 99% of them are fine with it. Attrition is THE only thing that will fix the east west problem. I think everyone on here knows that by now.

I figure it will be seperate ops until then or another merger. The court battles probably cannot fix it any faster than attrition can at this point.

 

[No Land Green]

Then why do I keep hearing west pilots complain about how many airplanes AWA had on order and how they were supposed to be Captains in 4 years? I agree that you cannot base a merged list on airplanes that you were supposed to get or whatever, but don't turn around and try to use that same argument when it suits you.

For me the only valid arguments that should be used are: How many seats each side brought to the merger, and each groups age based attrition. Everything else is speculation.

Examples of speculation are, growth, liquidation, what if's etc. DOH is a windfall for some east pilots, NIC is a windfall for all west pilots. If the east didn't have 3/4 of their list retiring in the next 15 years this really would not be an issue. I believe the numbers were 2728 out of 3600 east gone in 15 years and 785 of 1800 west gone in 15. When you run the list under NIC most of the 2728 east retirement seats go to west pilots. That is why this will not be worked out by anything other than the court system at this point. The east will do everything to protect the attrition and the west will do everything to get the east retirement seats.

We are where we are until a court says otherwise. That is the simple fact we are operating under. Every east pilot knows that and probably 99% of them are fine with it. Attrition is THE only thing that will fix the east west problem. I think everyone on here knows that by now.

I figure it will be seperate ops until then or another merger. The court battles probably cannot fix it any faster than attrition can at this point.

OUTSTANDING POST!!!!!!

NLG

 

[prechilill]

If the furloughed pilot had no career expectation, then nor did Captain Hogg nor any of the top 500. Career expectations, one of the greatest myths in life and aviation!

Agreed, but you forgot to mention attrition 10 years down the road. Can't have your cake...

 

[BoeingBoy]

Are you talking about 99 hires here? It sounds to me like it, going by the worked for two, furloughed for six, with no hope... If so, they are not senior to any west captains even by date of hire.

You should look at the seniority list before making statements like that. Like somebody else said, even under DOH nobody that fits the above description would be senior to any west Captain.

<snip>Edit: Also there were no 1986 and 1987 guys furloughed at the time of the merger.

You're both ignoring the 1989/1990 hires furloughed in 1991, recalled in 1997/1998, furloughed again in 2002, and finally recalled again in 2007 and later. They would be senior to most west captains, yet had only worked 7 years at the time of the merger.

Jim

 

[Move2CLT]

Hey Phoenix, you know what else nine out of ten doctors recommend?


That you learn how to use quote tags.

 

[Keroseneuser]

You're both ignoring the 1989/1990 hires furloughed in 1991, recalled in 1997/1998, furloughed again in 2002, and finally recalled again in 2007 and later. They would be senior to most west captains, yet had only worked 7 years at the time of the merger.

Jim

Neither of us were referring to the 89 90 hires Jim. The 89-90 hires are the ones that would get the windfall under DOH that I spoke of above. NIC is a windfall to all west pilots. Simple fact is under NIC 1999 and later AWA hires that have never been Captains are senior to never furloughed 1986 87 east guys that were Captain at the time of the merger. The 99 2000 east hires are a non factor on a DOH list in regards to AWA Captains at the time of the merger.

 

[Move2CLT]

disregard

You don't have to write that. It's a given.

 

[Move2CLT]

No, you refuse to do the hard work of taking an opportunity to capitalize on the failure of USAPA to build a coalition of like-minded east pilots who can undo the damage of Cleary and company.

Guide? I'd rather you just go away. You're an embarrassment to the west pilot group.

So, is the Nic unfair? Did we win the lottery? Do we owe the east something?

You still didn't answer my other questions.

Like I said, you're a whiskey delta. Take yourself out of the game for a while and ponder our situation. If anyone needs the time off its you.

Cleary, btw, has done the most to help the west with Nic right behind Bradford getting USAPA on property and locking the Nic in place.

Cleary will be reelected with the west's help. No other eastie has polarized his own pilot group so effectively. If you read my signature below, you'll understand exactly how beneficial Cleary is to the west. He doesnt allow you easties to become a majority.

 

[Move2CLT]

If the furloughed pilot had no career expectation, then nor did Captain Hogg nor any of the top 500. Career expectations, one of the greatest myths in life and aviation!

Yet relevant at PID and used in all integrations.

You guys call it a myth because the reality was not in your favor.

 

[Move2CLT]

OUTSTANDING POST!!!!!!

NLG

Hardly. He's already edited corrections to his own facts