US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

You beat me t it.

When he said the Nic is a "windfall for ALL West pilots", I understood there is no hope. Forget about our #1 guy who went to 517, but retired two years later. Take a look at our #100 guy Larry Taylor. Director of training or whatever his tittle was at the time. He got to be number 797. He went from double digit seniority and a directorship to damn near a thousand deep, and these scabs want more. Oh, and their "attrition" does not mean #### to him. It takes it all the 7 years he has left just to get back to where he was.

I have said all along. Nic or nothing, and it is looking more and more like we should shut the doors and give them nothing.

Awesome post.

Reread that luvn737 over and over again.

 

[cactusboy53]

I'm sure they will be enjoying themselves they are soaking enough money out you guys! 😀 😀

Let's take a little stroll down memory lane. It's a little thing I like to call :"Lies that Luvthe9 tells."

Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:28 PM #11672
“Now the chief pilots office is staying there will be jail time coming for the guys. Joe is waiting!!!”

Posted 31 March 2011 - 06:22 PM #11677
“We love Joe out here!!!, and yes innocent until proven guilty however that was a true statement for the office. I do feel for these idiots.”

Posted 01 April 2011 - 09:32 AM #11725
“Well it appears the pilots aside from USAPA have had just about enough of AOL, now we hear EFC LLC. (East Coast Flyers) is in the early stages of forming with the intent to start a civlil suit against AOL and possiibly the company. This just keeps getting better everyday. The west will need alot more donations so get those checkbooks out fellows.”

‘IT"S COMING”

Posted 01 April 2011 - 09:36 AM #11726
“Could just imagine what the westies would be trying to us do if it was the east that stole the information, sending crap in the mail (and yes that was verified by the FBI and U.S. Postal service) and the thousands of phone calls and the theats to do whatever it takes to bring our union down, This does not look good for AOL.”

Posted 01 April 2011 - 01:48 PM #11755
“Well it started, I just had 100 dollars switched form my checking account to a paypal account that was an unauthorized transfer. Watch you pockets kids!!!”

Posted 01 April 2011 - 03:10 PM #11763
“You have my word on this all kidding aside and I just signed up for that lifelock several days earlier. I'm not saying it was you guys but it happened.”

Posted 02 April 2011 - 12:08 PM #11826
“Very well said V. I think this place will be split up pretty soon, it's funny every east pilot is for spitting it up but no west pilot is on board with that idea, I wonder why?”

Posted 03 April 2011 - 10:53 AM #11888
“Spin and deflection, not to worry I think both sides will be happy pretty soon.”

Posted 04 April 2011 - 03:47 PM #11973
(Referring to Leonidas Brochures) “We need to let them send them and send often. That way, they have to "KEEP THE DONATIONS COMING!" ”

Posted 05 April 2011 - 10:08 PM #12142
“Just got in from a trip and had the training folks on the jumpseat, the word is we the "east" have stopped hiring pilots, I think this is in anticipation of the upcoming un-merger, should be interesting.”

Posted 09 April 2011 - 03:35 PM #12377
“The time is nearing for the un-merger.”

Posted 09 April 2011 - 09:49 PM #12420
“Nothing to do with lies the damage has already been done, it's so much fun the watch Tempe and the boys try to do damage control. Hey, I bet the next town hall meeting will be very good!!! I might even have to watch that one. You guys really stepped on your winky this time.”

Posted 10 April 2011 - 10:03 AM #12429
“Trader, I think this is going to go a lot higher than the pilots, I'm starting to think they were just the fall guys. Do you have any problem if management goes to jail or should everyone be allowed to just to want they want without any recourse?”

Posted 10 April 2011 - 11:54 AM #12433
“I agree, this place will be split and I think Parker and company are finished in the airline industry, with his DUI's and absolute lack of leadership, the way employees are treated around here, and his inability to merge to small airlines plus the identity theft debacle, what a legacy he will leave behind.”

Posted 10 April 2011 - 01:02 PM #12439
“I think they call this the "Stockholm syndrome". P.S. Parker does not have your back.”

Posted 10 April 2011 - 07:48 PM #12462
“Nice try, but backwards, sues for everything, steals personal data the west is finished and will be shed soon.”

Posted 12 April 2011 - 04:26 PM #12615
“It is the Tokyo Rose thing. They tell you what you should do, because they know they are losing. 5 yrs. into the UNMERGE, 3 YEARS into Nicolau Fantasy. They cannot pull it off, and it galls them to no end. Fully knowing the 9th already bombed them out, and Kasher could possibly be the next "Little Man" headed to their Nicolau fantasy.”

Posted 13 April 2011 - 03:53 PM #12648
“And also the most important, please keeps all those donations coming in because we are broke and owe the attorneys a lot of money and we will require more with our identity theft case coming soon.”

 

[mrbreeze]

Unless you are among those willing to jettison the failed policies of USAPA and forge an alliance with the west which would probably make you unpopular with your buddies that cooked up this USAPA scheme, then I'd rather not have your defense.

I understand.....and actually, I am looking forward to a changing of the guard at USAPA....can't happen soon enough IMO.

breeze

 

[Keroseneuser]

You beat me t it.

When he said the Nic is a "windfall for ALL West pilots", I understood there is no hope. Forget about our #1 guy who went to 517, but retired two years later.

Would you care to check the list and tell me how many of the 516 east guys that you speak of are already gone?

Thats the problem with what we have here. BOTH sides have a good argument, neither side has THE argument. Problem is nobody seems to see that DOH only or NIC only can only lead one place.

You might not be far off whn you spoke of the place closing the doors. As long as both sides stay on the "only" plan. We are where we are.

 

[Move2CLT]

I understand.....and actually, I am looking forward to a changing of the guard at USAPA....can't happen soon enough IMO.

breeze

Wishful thinking. Cleary is our guy.

Funny how Bradford was the east hero and now USAPA is going after him.

Funny how Seham was the hero and now USAPA is going after him.

Funny how Cleary was the messiah and now he's seen as a seller of snake oil who breeze looks forward to voting out of office. I wonder when USAPA will go after him.

If you east guys ever figure out how to actually go after something with mucking it up, I'd actually be worried.

But I'm not. Your history shows you a incapable of doing so and always end up worse off then when you started. And this is shaping up to end that way as well.

If USAPA were a stock, I'd be shorting it right now.

 

[BoeingBoy]

As long as 90% of the east retirement attrition goes west it will never happen except maybe after a long expensive court fight.

That's what gets me - statements like that can't be mathematically correct. Between the top 500 and the bottom 1800 there are about 3000 combined pilots. That combined portion is composed of approximately 2 east pilots for every west pilot. So how in the world is 90% of the attrition going to go to west pilots when 66% of the pilots in that combined portion of the Nic are east pilots?

Admittedly, there is a reservoir of west F/O's who could upgrade if the groups were combined with the Nic - delaying implementation is responsible for that. So there would be a period after combining the two groups when a lot more west than east pilots would upgrade. Once that was finished, it would go back to the roughly 2 east to 1 west. But that's upgrade, not attrition. In short, the east has had a mullti-year honeymoon period of getting 90+% of attrition AND new aircraft on the property caused movement, and that would flip for a like number of years. But almost no matter where the attrition is seniority wise, two east pilots move up a number for every west pilot who moves up a number. There is just no way the west gets 90% of the movement from attrition.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

No Jim. The original poster said "East pilots that worked for 2 years and then furloughed for 6" Clearly he was referring to the 99 2000 hires and that was what we were correcting him on.

You are the one that changed "2 years" to "a couple of years" to change the meaning. The 89 90 guys would have been in the 5 to 6 years LOS range.

I changed it to "a couple of years" for only one reason - the 89/90 hires had from less than a year to 3 years on property when the 91 furlough came. Without looking at specific individuals' class and furlough dates, there may be no east pilot hired during those 2 years that had exactly 2 years on property then was furloughed. So I assumed that "worked 2 years then furloughed 6" were approximations.

Those 89/90 hires DO fit the general description of having worked 2 years then furloughed 6. The fact that they were then recalled and again furloughed doesn't change that portion of their history at US/PI/PSA. The FACT is that there are a lot more than a few east pilots that fit the description AND would go above most west captains in a DOH merger. Claiming otherwise is ignoring the FACTS.

Jim

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

You were both claiming that there weren't any east pilots that worked a couple of years then were furloughed for six AND were senior to west captains.....

Jim

If it came across that I was claiming that, it was unintentional. At the time of the merger those 88/90 furloughess may have been furloughed, but they had worked more than 2 years, which is why I assumed res could only be referring to the 99 hires. Perhaps I took that '2 years' to literally.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I assumed the opposite because even the 99 hires had over two years before being furloughed (although some could have their time rounded to two years), and hadn't been furloughed 6 years at the time of the merger (which is the time used for the NIC).

Actually, it's pretty much an academic discussion. Unless USAPA self destructs or a court orders otherwise, the only choices are the NIC or DOH. LOS, other than how it might have influenced Nic, has nothing to do with which of those two choices will prevail.

Jim

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I assumed the opposite because even the 99 hires had over two years before being furloughed (although some could have their time rounded to two years), and hadn't been furloughed 6 years at the time of the merger (which is the time used for the NIC).

Actually, it's pretty much an academic discussion. Unless USAPA self destructs or a court orders otherwise, the only choices are the NIC or DOH. LOS, other than how it might have influenced Nic, has nothing to do with which of those two choices will prevail.

Jim

Ok, I gotcha now. Believe me, as a 97 hire captain I'm well aware of that 88/90 group, and where doh would put me🙂Like you say, it's academic at this point.

 

[nevergiveup]

Yet relevant at PID and used in all integrations.

You guys call it a myth because the reality was not in your favor.

To this point, have you met your career expectations?

 

[Move2CLT]

That's what gets me - statements like that can't be mathematically correct. Between the top 500 and the bottom 1800 there are about 3000 combined pilots. That combined portion is composed of approximately 2 east pilots for every west pilot. So how in the world is 90% of the attrition going to go to west pilots when 66% of the pilots in that combined portion of the Nic are east pilots?

Admittedly, there is a reservoir of west F/O's who could upgrade if the groups were combined with the Nic - delaying implementation is responsible for that. So there would be a period after combining the two groups when a lot more west than east pilots would upgrade. Once that was finished, it would go back to the roughly 2 east to 1 west. But that's upgrade, not attrition. In short, the east has had a mullti-year honeymoon period of getting 90+% of attrition AND new aircraft on the property caused movement, and that would flip for a like number of years. But almost no matter where the attrition is seniority wise, two east pilots move up a number for every west pilot who moves up a number. There is just no way the west gets 90% of the movement from attrition.

Jim

Typical east under-education. They get second-hand info from individuals, usually reps, who base their info on other second-hand info. There is no effort in the east to do DD on anything.

I had an eastie tell me that the average age was 40 over here on the west. When I showed him the actually numbers were within two years of each other and backed it up, the tap dance that ensued was comical.

 

[Move2CLT]

To this point, have you met your career expectations?

Nope. Because USAPA got in the way.

But your question shows how little you understand that quantity when used in SLI.

 

[Keroseneuser]

That's what gets me - statements like that can't be mathematically correct. Between the top 500 and the bottom 1800 there are about 3000 combined pilots. That combined portion is composed of approximately 2 east pilots for every west pilot. So how in the world is 90% of the attrition going to go to west pilots when 66% of the pilots in that combined portion of the Nic are east pilots?

Admittedly, there is a reservoir of west F/O's who could upgrade if the groups were combined with the Nic - delaying implementation is responsible for that. So there would be a period after combining the two groups when a lot more west than east pilots would upgrade. Once that was finished, it would go back to the roughly 2 east to 1 west.

Jim

If we had about the same age ratios you would be correct. The attrition gets all out of whack when you take in to account in your 2 to 1 ratio with the age differences. 15 years 2700 plus east guy go compared to the 785 west. 90% or more of current east captains are gone in 15 years.

Your statement above about the period when more west than east would upgrade is correct, BUT after that the east guys are already gone, so the rest ends up going to the west also. The west that is in your bottom 1800. Under NIC most of the current east F/O's will hit 65 before they could ever upgrade assuming current fleet size.

The biggest problem I see with NIC in 2005 is:

It did not account for the huge age difference between the two groups in an indusrty that has Mandatory retirement age.

The biggest problem now is:

The age difference, and now 6 years later the good number of the top 516 east on the list that are already retired. It is brought up a lot by the west, but it is no where near 516 now.
We have had everybody back on the property for several years now. The LOS times between east and west for the bottom 1500 or so are basically the same. East 99 2000 hire is junior to west 2003 or 4 guy, but they both have same time in service. Which would not matter except for one big issue, the junior east guys have enough votes to scrap any NIC T/A proposal.

What I am trying to get across is we are absoulutly at an impass here. With the exception of whats left of the 516 top east guys, every other east pilot left is better off remaining seperate ops under loa 93. LOA 93 Captain is better than permanant f/o. Unless Doug wants to cough up f/o rates that are in the range of 115 an hour, I dont see anything changing.

I see no way to put the two groups together for anything less than 1998 US payrates or better. Money or time can fix this, I don't see anything else that can.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Typical east under-education. They get second-hand info from individuals, usually reps, who base their info on other second-hand info. There is no effort in the east to do DD on anything.

I had an eastie tell me that the average age was 40 over here on the west. When I showed him the actually numbers were within two years of each other and backed it up, the tap dance that ensued was comical.

After the furloughs were done post 9/11 the youngest guy left on the active list I think was 42. 44 by the time the merger came about. That means he is 50 now. Everybody below him is junior to the most junior west guy on NIC.

Does not really matter if it is 2 years or 20 years. It still means he probably hits retirement before his NIC counterpart does. However the retirement numbers of 2700 plus to 785 in 15 years tells the story. The west guys are younger, but per NIC would have the senior spots. Hence LOA 93 is better in the long run for most east pilots current pay rates or proposed pay rates (Kirby)

Again, no incentive at the moment for the east to vote for anything that includes NIC. So if the NIC guys want NIC or nothing, it looks like it will be nothing until time retires the majority or the courts come up with something. I bet time has the better odds of fixing it first. Though with all the newhires they will have to hire on the east to replace the 2700 don't know if that is possible. They will not want NIC either since it would dump 1000 + above them on the list. Even though they are not included on the merger data they wont vote for anything with it since their equipment and QOL bid will be dependant on the east attrition.

Tempe can fix it with an industry contract but they won't. Depending on what Kasher rules the east may not care if it is ever put together.