US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cactusboy53]

Then why do I keep hearing west pilots complain about how many airplanes AWA had on order and how they were supposed to be Captains in 4 years? I agree that you cannot base a merged list on airplanes that you were supposed to get or whatever, but don't turn around and try to use that same argument when it suits you.

For me the only valid arguments that should be used are: How many seats each side brought to the merger, and each groups age based attrition. Everything else is speculation.

Examples of speculation are, growth, liquidation, what if's etc. DOH is a windfall for some east pilots, NIC is a windfall for all west pilots. If the east didn't have 3/4 of their list retiring in the next 15 years this really would not be an issue. I believe the numbers were 2728 out of 3600 east gone in 15 years and 785 of 1800 west gone in 15. When you run the list under NIC most of the 2728 east retirement seats go to west pilots. That is why this will not be worked out by anything other than the court system at this point. The east will do everything to protect the attrition and the west will do everything to get the east retirement seats.

We are where we are until a court says otherwise. That is the simple fact we are operating under. Every east pilot knows that and probably 99% of them are fine with it. Attrition is THE only thing that will fix the east west problem. I think everyone on here knows that by now.

I figure it will be seperate ops until then or another merger. The court battles probably cannot fix it any faster than attrition can at this point.

Kero;
I see more pilots that were furloughed from AAA at the time of the merger complaining far more that I see AWA pilots that were gainfully employed. Nicolau addressed the seats (read JOBS) brought to the table. The two gainfully employed pilots on both properties are right next to each other. FURTHER, the top 517 positions on the list belong to the top 517 East pilots. That's not even close to relative, BUT it is a process that we mutually agreed upon and will honor (one by integrity, one by legal force). DOH is a windfall for ALL east pilots. The Nicolau list is the blended list that meets all of the tenets of the agreed merger process.

You are right, we are stuck where we are until a court instructs the parties on legal obligations. We didn't have to go this route.....it was simply forged by Bradford, King and the band of Merry Men in the back of a van. Facilitated by the ONLY law firm that said that DOH was a slam dunk (who is now leaving with over 10,000,000 of our dues money). USAPA in its present form is a dismal failure.

Attrition: In the next five years only 60% of the east retirements will be captain seats. 95% of the west retirements will be captain seats. All those men and women punching out at age 65 lost nearly 3/4 of a million dollars had you agreed to JUST the Kirby Proposal (and we likely would have gotten much more). What a sad loss, all in the name of misguided greed.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

You're both ignoring the 1989/1990 hires furloughed in 1991, recalled in 1997/1998, furloughed again in 2002, and finally recalled again in 2007 and later. They would be senior to most west captains, yet had only worked 7 years at the time of the merger.

Jim

Under doh those pilots would indeed be senior to most west captains, including me. I only brought the 99 hires up because it sounded to me like that's who res was referring to in the post I quoted. Some west posters have previously corrected east posters who overstated the case they were making, and I thought it would only be right to do the same in this case.

Of course I might not have interpreted res's post correctly either, if so, that's my bad.

 

[Pi brat]

Kero;


Attrition: In the next five years only 60% of the east retirements will be captain seats.

I see this number thrown around a lot. Do you know if any of those that retire as F/Os could be in the left seat? We have a lot of very senior F/Os, especially on the A330. If someone has the numbers a more accurate indication would be where retirement numbers are in seniority brackets, because if the are senior to you and retire it helps, no matter what seat they are in.

 

[cleardirect]

Neither of us were referring to the 89 90 hires Jim. The 89-90 hires are the ones that would get the windfall under DOH that I spoke of above. NIC is a windfall to all west pilots. Simple fact is under NIC 1999 and later AWA hires that have never been Captains are senior to never furloughed 1986 87 east guys that were Captain at the time of the merger. The 99 2000 east hires are a non factor on a DOH list in regards to AWA Captains at the time of the merger.

You say thay Nicolau is a windfall for ALL west pilots. How did our number one guying to 517 get to be a windfall?

At the time of the merger our junior captain was hired in 9/1998.

Using DOH east pilot Taylor was was hired 2/1990 was furloughed 630 deep. Had 15.3 years DOH but only 6.2 years LOS. He and 630 FURLOUGHED east pilots would be senior to west CAPTAINS using DOH.

So in your world a furloughed east pilots senior to west captains is not a windfall but our number one guy losing 517 positions is a windfall. Crazy world you live in.

 

[prechilill]

You say thay Nicolau is a windfall for ALL west pilots. How did our number one guying to 517 get to be a windfall?

At the time of the merger our junior captain was hired in 9/1998.

Using DOH east pilot Taylor was was hired 2/1990 was furloughed 630 deep. Had 15.3 years DOH but only 6.2 years LOS. He and 630 FURLOUGHED east pilots would be senior to west CAPTAINS using DOH.

So in your world a furloughed east pilots senior to west captains is not a windfall but our number one guy losing 517 positions is a windfall. Crazy world you live in.

great post Clear. The lies and assertions coming from the east reeks of desperation. It will be over soon for them and hopefully then we will all move forward as a pilot group.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Attrition: In the next five years only 60% of the east retirements will be captain seats. 95% of the west retirements will be captain seats.

And that is roughly 1636 east Captains retiring using your numbers in the next 15 years. Under NIC most of those seats would go to west pilots. The west only has 1800 total. That is a windfall for the west pilots. Even if all 758 west retires in the next 15 are Captains.

This is the part that you never see mentioned in any of those AOL mailings. They don't want to talk about it.

That is why we are where we are and why only a merger, attrition or court ruling will change it. However long that takes. Union changes at this point wont make a difference, no contract can possibly get voted in until one of the above happens.

Tempe can throw enough money at the situation to get a vote, but they are not going to do that. The west has always been on crap wages, and the east is currently on crap wages and thats exactly how the company wants it.

 

[Keroseneuser]

You say thay Nicolau is a windfall for ALL west pilots. How did our number one guying to 517 get to be a windfall?

At the time of the merger our junior captain was hired in 9/1998.

Using DOH east pilot Taylor was was hired 2/1990 was furloughed 630 deep. Had 15.3 years DOH but only 6.2 years LOS. He and 630 FURLOUGHED east pilots would be senior to west CAPTAINS using DOH.

So in your world a furloughed east pilots senior to west captains is not a windfall but our number one guy losing 517 positions is a windfall. Crazy world you live in.

You guys like to toss around the length of service a lot. I have always said that DOH is not workable either. But using your argument about LOS does not work either, considering you just pointed out the fact that your junior Captain at time of merger was 9/1998, just about the same LOS as pilot Tailor even after his furloughs. Again this is why we are where we are with no way out for years to come.

The top 517 positions that you speak of I believe is about the number of widebody seats that the east had that the west did not at time of merger. Would need to look that data up to be able to speak much about it.

 

[Zone5]

I see this number thrown around a lot. Do you know if any of those that retire as F/Os could be in the left seat? We have a lot of very senior F/Os, especially on the A330. If someone has the numbers a more accurate indication would be where retirement numbers are in seniority brackets, because if the are senior to you and retire it helps, no matter what seat they are in.

EVERY F/O in CLT on the 330 is senior enough to hold a narrow body CAP position today!

seajay

 

[Keroseneuser]

EVERY F/O in CLT on the 330 is senior enough to hold a narrow body CAP position today!

seajay

There are a lot of F/O's on the little bus that can hold left seat on the 737 or bus also. Most just dont want to be on reserve under the "change the PT on a whim" or "PT's don't apply to international" so you end up being awake for 20 + hours trying to fly an airplane after being on call all night or commute.

 

[nic4us]

You're both ignoring the 1989/1990 hires furloughed in 1991, recalled in 1997/1998, furloughed again in 2002, and finally recalled again in 2007 and later. They would be senior to most west captains, yet had only worked 7 years at the time of the merger.

Jim

This was covered during Nic testimony.

east pilot Hershey (DOH 7-19-89, DOB 1964) who is 500 deep into the furloughed ranks is explaining why he deserves his DOH seniority and why he gets to leepfrog 1500 of 1880 active West pilots, including roughly 500+ captains, when he is interrupted.

The interruptiion comes from West merger committee chairman Stravers (DOH 7-5-89, DOB 1955), who I would guess made captain in 1996, who asks, "wait just a second, I have more time in the left seat than you have LOS with AAA, and you think you deserve to come off the street and be next to me on the combined seniority list"?

Hershey was the best testimony the east could have offered the West. He highlighted exactly why DOH was DOA. No arbitrator in their right mind, and the TA forbid, the replacement of active employees with furloughed employees. Even taking an active, never furloughed '86 hire junior f/o and leepfrogging them over virtually the entire West list would be the same thing as giving Hershey his DOH seniority in a combined list. It violates the TA, ALPA merger policy, and the company's statement of labor principles.


The fundamental thing about career expectation is really easy to grasp. It is not your carreer expectation on your DOH, or the day you made captain in 1988. It is you position and status on the PID. On the Pid, Stravers was a mediocre seniority, deep into lineholding A320 captain. His expectation from a merger would be that anybody with position and status senior to his would remain senior to him, and anybody with position and status junior to his would remain junior to him on any combined list. Well, Hershey's long endurance furloughed position was most definitely junior to Straver's captain seat, as was the '86 hire never furloughed east reserve f/o.

 

[Move2CLT]

Unless you are among those willing to jettison the failed policies of USAPA and forge an alliance with the west which would probably make you unpopular with your buddies that cooked up this USAPA scheme, then I'd rather not have your defense.

Did you read that breeze? He just told you to STFU.

 

[Keroseneuser]

This was covered during Nic testimony.

east pilot Hershey (DOH 7-19-89, DOB 1964) who is 500 deep into the furloughed ranks is explaining why he deserves his DOH seniority and why he gets to leepfrog 1500 of 1880 active West pilots, including roughly 500+ captains, when he is interrupted.

The interruptiion comes from West merger committee chairman Stravers (DOH 7-5-89, DOB 1955), who I would guess made captain in 1996, who asks, "wait just a second, I have more time in the left seat than you have LOS with AAA, and you think you deserve to come off the street and be next to me on the combined seniority list"?

Hershey was the best testimony the east could have offered the West. He highlighted exactly why DOH was DOA. No arbitrator in their right mind, and the TA forbid, the replacement of active employees with furloughed employees. Even taking an active, never furloughed '86 hire junior f/o and leepfrogging them over virtually the entire West list would be the same thing as giving Hershey his DOH seniority in a combined list. It violates the TA, ALPA merger policy, and the company's statement of labor principles.


The fundamental thing about career expectation is really easy to grasp. It is not your carreer expectation on your DOH, or the day you made captain in 1988. It is you position and status on the PID. On the Pid, Stravers was a mediocre seniority, deep into lineholding A320 captain. His expectation from a merger would be that anybody with position and status senior to his would remain senior to him, and anybody with position and status junior to his would remain junior to him on any combined list. Well, Hershey's long endurance furloughed position was most definitely junior to Straver's captain seat, as was the '86 hire never furloughed east reserve f/o.

Thats the thing, the "86 hire east reserve f/o" was not an f/o. He was a captain at time of merger. There are many on the list like him that got leapfrogged by west f/o's under NIC.

Thing is, you could probably get the east to vote in a NIc list as long as the east attrition was protected for east pilots, and the west protected for the west. As long as 90% of the east retirement attrition goes west it will never happen except maybe after a long expensive court fight.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Neither of us were referring to the 89 90 hires Jim.

You were both claiming that there weren't any east pilots that worked a couple of years then were furloughed for six AND were senior to west captains. I was merely pointing out that by omitting the 89/90 hires you left out a quite a number of east pilots that fit that description. They aren't the only ones that get a windfall under DOH either. Anyone hired then furloughed at least once before the merger gets a windfall since under DOH they get credit for a lot of years that they weren't working. The west side would have some in that category also, but the east has a lot more than it's approximately 2 to 1 size difference would account for.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

You say thay Nicolau is a windfall for ALL west pilots. How did our number one guying to 517 get to be a windfall?

At the time of the merger our junior captain was hired in 9/1998.

Using DOH east pilot Taylor was was hired 2/1990 was furloughed 630 deep. Had 15.3 years DOH but only 6.2 years LOS. He and 630 FURLOUGHED east pilots would be senior to west CAPTAINS using DOH.

So in your world a furloughed east pilots senior to west captains is not a windfall but our number one guy losing 517 positions is a windfall. Crazy world you live in.

You beat me t it.

When he said the Nic is a "windfall for ALL West pilots", I understood there is no hope. Forget about our #1 guy who went to 517, but retired two years later. Take a look at our #100 guy Larry Taylor. Director of training or whatever his tittle was at the time. He got to be number 797. He went from double digit seniority and a directorship to damn near a thousand deep, and these scabs want more. Oh, and their "attrition" does not mean #### to him. It takes it all the 7 years he has left just to get back to where he was.

I have said all along. Nic or nothing, and it is looking more and more like we should shut the doors and give them nothing.

 

[Keroseneuser]

You were both claiming that there weren't any east pilots that worked a couple of years then were furloughed for six AND were senior to west captains. I was merely pointing out that by omitting the 89/90 hires you left out a quite a number of east pilots that fit that description. They aren't the only ones that get a windfall under DOH either. Anyone hired then furloughed at least once before the merger gets a windfall since under DOH they get credit for a lot of years that they weren't working. The west side would have some in that category also, but the east has a lot more than it's approximately 2 to 1 size difference would account for.

Jim

No Jim. The original poster said "East pilots that worked for 2 years and then furloughed for 6" Clearly he was referring to the 99 2000 hires and that was what we were correcting him on.

You are the one that changed "2 years" to "a couple of years" to change the meaning. The 89 90 guys would have been in the 5 to 6 years LOS range.