US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nevergiveup]

Nope. Because USAPA got in the way.

But your question shows how little you understand that quantity when used in SLI.

Thank you. I rest my case. Don't feel bad, I didn't get mine either.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Would you care to check the list and tell me how many of the 516 east guys that you speak of are already gone?

Good one, which indicates which side incorporated time (attrition) in their long range plans vs the ever popular "I want it now and I want the east to pay for it".

Thats the problem with what we have here. BOTH sides have a good argument, neither side has THE argument. Problem is nobody seems to see that DOH only or NIC only can only lead one place.

The west has no good argument, unless you live in an extremely immature/ADD world.

and, maybe I missed the reply, but, did not the "517 wide body protections" majorly change if the mandatory age 60 retirement went away?

You might not be far off whn you spoke of the place closing the doors. As long as both sides stay on the "only" plan. We are where we are.

Even turds can be polished -- ask the Mythbusters. LOS goes a long way to compromise from the east and seems to answer many concerns.

 

[Move2CLT]

Thank you. I rest my case. Don't feel bad, I didn't get mine either.

And I rest mine. You're clueless about career expectations and SLI.

And I don't feel bad. You're on LOA93, not me.

 

[cleardirect]

Thats the thing, the "86 hire east reserve f/o" was not an f/o. He was a captain at time of merger. There are many on the list like him that got leapfrogged by west f/o's under NIC.

Thing is, you could probably get the east to vote in a NIc list as long as the east attrition was protected for east pilots, and the west protected for the west. As long as 90% of the east retirement attrition goes west it will never happen except maybe after a long expensive court fight.

Your facts are just incorrect.

The west junior captain was Kubic. On the Nicolau list the east pilot senior to him is W Highsmith. He is listed as a CLT 320 FO. Not a captain. The junior east captain was Shiller. There were only 5 east captain junior to Highsmith. So east captains and west captains were merged. East Fo's and west FO's were merged. So only 5 east captains got"leapfrogged" by 9 west fo's.

Are you going to cry and give away millions of dollars over 5 captains?

Most of your attrition is protected. The lists were merged 2 out of 3 east pilots. So you get 66% of the attrition instead of the 75%. But you want 90% of it. Overreaching as Kirby said.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Even turds can be polished -- ask the Mythbusters. LOS goes a long way to compromise from the east and seems to answer many concerns.

Yes LOS would go a long way to getting something that could be voted in. I bet most of the 88 to 2000 east hires would go for it. That and a no bump no flush of all current positions I know the east would do it.

Doubt the west would though. Bet I have a "NIC or nothing" guy queing up his quote tab right now! 🙂

 

[cleardirect]

After the furloughs were done post 9/11 the youngest guy left on the active list I think was 42. 44 by the time the merger came about. That means he is 50 now. Everybody below him is junior to the most junior west guy on NIC.

Does not really matter if it is 2 years or 20 years. It still means he probably hits retirement before his NIC counterpart does. However the retirement numbers of 2700 plus to 785 in 15 years tells the story. The west guys are younger, but per NIC would have the senior spots. Hence LOA 93 is better in the long run for most east pilots current pay rates or proposed pay rates (Kirby)

Again, no incentive at the moment for the east to vote for anything that includes NIC. So if the NIC guys want NIC or nothing, it looks like it will be nothing until time retires the majority or the courts come up with something. I bet time has the better odds of fixing it first. Though with all the newhires they will have to hire on the east to replace the 2700 don't know if that is possible. They will not want NIC either since it would dump 1000 + above them on the list. Even though they are not included on the merger data they wont vote for anything with it since their equipment and QOL bid will be dependant on the east attrition.

Tempe can fix it with an industry contract but they won't. Depending on what Kasher rules the east may not care if it is ever put together.

Have you done the math? Are you sure that an east fo on LOA 93 is better off than on a new contract? The longest delay your own guy could come up with was 2 years and that was near the bottom of the list.

If making $85 and waiting to make $125 is better than $100 waiting a max of 2 years to make $170-180. Show me the math.

 

[cleardirect]

Yes LOS would go a long way to getting something that could be voted in. I bet most of the 88 to 2000 east hires would go for it. That and a no bump no flush of all current positions I know the east would do it.

Doubt the west would though. Bet I have a "NIC or nothing" guy queing up his quote tab right now! 🙂

I bet you would like LOS. Monda the junior active east guy was never furloughed. So your entire list would get DOH. Placing all but 340 west captain junior to your furloughed pilots. No thanks LOS is essentially DOH.

Nicolau is it. You guys can stop trying to negotiate or compromise or whatever you are trying to do.

 

[Move2CLT]

What incentive do we have to move off the Nic? I only see you guys begging for change, not us.

And since you don't mind being on LOA93, we don't mind keeping you there.

 

[Move2CLT]

Good one, which indicates which side incorporated time (attrition) in their long range plans vs the ever popular "I want it now and I want the east to pay for it".



The west has no good argument, unless you live in an extremely immature/ADD world.

and, maybe I missed the reply, but, did not the "517 wide body protections" majorly change if the mandatory age 60 retirement went away?



Even turds can be polished -- ask the Mythbusters. LOS goes a long way to compromise from the east and seems to answer many concerns.

There's that compromise dream again.

The time for compromise has come and gone so drop. Its NEVER going to happen.

Lucky for you LOA93 isn't so bad. Now I'm off the bid my 30 days of vacation.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Your facts are just incorrect.

The west junior captain was Kubic. On the Nicolau list the east pilot senior to him is W Highsmith. He is listed as a CLT 320 FO. Not a captain. The junior east captain was Shiller. There were only 5 east captain junior to Highsmith. So east captains and west captains were merged. East Fo's and west FO's were merged. So only 5 east captains got"leapfrogged" by 9 west fo's.

Are you going to cry and give away millions of dollars over 5 captains?

Most of your attrition is protected. The lists were merged 2 out of 3 east pilots. So you get 66% of the attrition instead of the 75%. But you want 90% of it. Overreaching as Kirby said.

Well our attrition and yours is protected and optimized now and for a long time to come, LAS-GONE, BOS-GONE, LGA-GONE, but your ST NIC won't be showing up this CHRISTMAS or any more! As for KIRBY he can GO F$% HI*&%^$, well you get our drift!

 

[traderjake]

Another week gone by and no Kasher decision.

Is he writing the Magna Carta?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

DID the NAUGHLER CASE GET A TRIAL DATE YET?

 

[Captain Underpants]

Just a quick update on the status of LOA 93 for those who are wondering.....

As of a couple of days ago and contrary to rumors there is still no decision from the arbitrator. The delay was caused by the fact that our arbitrator is also the chief arbitrator for the NFL and he was totally consumed this summer by the NFL strike and related issues. He has confirmed that he is now working on the LOA 93 decision.

The company is trying to prevail on a legal concept in contract law known as "mutual mistake". The company is claiming both sides negotiated and agreed that there would be no expiration to the pay freeze. USAPA is claiming the pay freeze expiration was discussed extensively during negotiations and that both the company and ALPA agreed to a pay freeze expiration date. USAPA's proof is that the contract clearly contains the exact date the pay freeze was to expire and the document was signed by both the company and ALPA. The arbitrator is bound to follow the law and enforce the current and correct contract rates which are easily determined by applying the effective pay modifications to the pay rates contained in the underlying pilot contract. The company is now incorrectly applying the current and the expired pay modifications to the contract pay rates which is an illegal violation of the status quo provisions of the Railway Labor Act.

Awaiting the decision both sides are certain they are going to win and are both chilling the Champagne.....

underpants

 

[Reed Richards]

Just a quick update on the status of LOA 93 for those who are wondering.....

As of a couple of days ago and contrary to rumors there is still no decision from the arbitrator. The delay was caused by the fact that our arbitrator is also the chief arbitrator for the NFL and he was totally consumed this summer by the NFL strike and related issues. He has confirmed that he is now working on the LOA 93 decision.

The company is trying to prevail on a legal concept in contract law known as "mutual mistake". The company is claiming both sides negotiated and agreed that there would be no expiration to the pay freeze. USAPA is claiming the pay freeze expiration was discussed extensively during negotiations and that both the company and ALPA agreed to a pay freeze expiration date. USAPA's proof is that the contract clearly contains the exact date the pay freeze was to expire and the document was signed by both the company and ALPA. The arbitrator is bound to follow the law and enforce the current and correct contract rates which are easily determined by applying the effective pay modifications to the pay rates contained in the underlying pilot contract. The company is now incorrectly applying the current and the expired pay modifications to the contract pay rates which is an illegal violation of the status quo provisions of the Railway Labor Act.

Awaiting the decision both sides are certain they are going to win and are both chilling the Champagne.....

underpants

“The decision is not out, way overdue, and everyone involved wants a win.” Not sure what that was, but it was not an update.

Reminds me of an NAC update..."The NAC met with the Company and they did not like our sick or covered pilots sections. The Company sucks, and we will meet again in a month. Insert any date between July 2008 and October 2011"

RR

 

[Keroseneuser]

Have you done the math? Are you sure that an east fo on LOA 93 is better off than on a new contract? The longest delay your own guy could come up with was 2 years and that was near the bottom of the list.

If making $85 and waiting to make $125 is better than $100 waiting a max of 2 years to make $170-180. Show me the math.

The 2 year number was quoted by a west guy. If your question is about the large group of guys that were hired from 88 to 2000. It is a whole lot longer than 2 years.

If NIC is implemented, there is a whole pack of senior f/o's that are in their mid 50's that will never see the left seat, under LOA 93 they will at least get a few years. Under NIC the average guy that was hired from 88 to 2000 will have hundreds of guys younger than them senior to them.

For the 88 to 2000 guys that were furloughed when the merger took place, they are all below the most junior west guy.

retires west east
2012 2 8
2013 40 144
2014 42 201
2015 48 179
2016 42 227
2017 58 237
2018 50 258
2019 74 255
2020 66 240

9 year total 422 west 1749 east

So Under LOA 93 seperate ops by 2020 at least 1200 Capt. seats open up to f/o's even assuming that 500 of the 1749 retires are f/o's that only leaves 651 east pilots that are here now as f/o's. Less than the number that is stapled to the bottom of NIC that were furloughed. Add in medicals and early out guys and the number is less.

Under NIC take away the 422 west retires, assume they are all captains (as the west likes to point out) and that leaves 1378 west pilots, of which most of those 1200 east capt seats would go to per NIC.

1000 hours a year , so $15 hour f/o difference under nic is $15000 year pre tax.

LOA 93 Capt seat means $40000 year difference for them.

That means that under NIC an east F/o would have to work 2.6 years to make what they would as a LOA 93 capt.

Under LOA 93 every east pilot is a Captain in less than 12 years current fleet, new hires included.

Under NIC at 12 years the east would still have 88 to 2000 hires stuck in right seat.

east only has 3600 now including newbies, figure half is left seat and thats 1800, roughly the same amount east guys gone in 9 years.

NOW the telling part, west only has 422 retirements and roughly 900 capt seats. Unless they can shove NIC down the easts neck they will still have 478 current f/o's still in the right seat. Current fleet.


That is why you see the east guys not complaining much about LOA 93, and the west guys screaming that it is NIC or nothing.