US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Luvn, we told you the Nic T/A has nothing we need. What does it do for any East pilot below the 500 range seniority? Nothing. And there are a lot of them. The 9th says it means nothing, just an idea someone had in the distant past. We rejected it already. As I said, wait until Kasher is the feeling around campus. What is the rush? Someone come up with a decent idea, LOS with fences or something like that, and maybe you can make it fly. I still think Kasher will come through, but say he doesn't. There are three 3 per cents coming on shortly at the worst case, coupled with the retirements. That is not a bad thing.
Anyway, Parker and Kirby are not giving anyone anything for nothing. It has already been proved there is no way East and West will get together on a unified move to a contract with the issues over the summer, so we know better than to even try. Every group for themselves now. Business as usual.

For a case that means nothing it sure gets quoted a lot.

I fail to follow your logic please explain. Is the company paying you the 3% raise? NO! That is part of the LOA 93 arbitration. So if Kasher rejects the argument. How are you going to get the 3%?

The worst case is you get nothing.
You say every group for themselves. How does usapa fairly represent the west if they are representing the east?

DFR!

 

[BoeingBoy]

If we continue to perpetuate this course of action, NOBODY is going to be happy with the eventual "dictated" results.

I think you're wrong, but only because the court won't create a solution. Barring a change in USAPA, the courts will "dictate" that either the Nic must be used or that USAPA is free to negotiate a list with the company (not that I think that precedent is good - do you want the company involved in seniority integrations in the future?). Of course, if USAPA is free to negotiate seniority with the company, the result will be subject to two factors - the company's desired outcome and the union's DFR responsibilities, so if the result isn't the Nic you all could be right back in court.

Jim

 

[Keroseneuser]

For a case that means nothing it sure gets quoted a lot.

I fail to follow your logic please explain. Is the company paying you the 3% raise? NO! That is part of the LOA 93 arbitration. So if Kasher rejects the argument. How are you going to get the 3%?

The worst case is you get nothing.
You say every group for themselves. How does usapa fairly represent the west if they are representing the east?

DFR!

There has been a lot of talk about what could be voted in, especially from some on the west that say a T/A with NIC would pass.

Some numbers:

Currently The east has 1750+ scheduled to retire in next 9 years. Not all Captain or active. But figure at least 1200 capts and probably 1000 active. Figure approx 500 max f/o(probably a high estimate)

The east has 2446 active pilots currently (just counted them) and the west has about 1400 (from memory from a few days ago)

The east has 1238 active captains and 1408 active F/o's

Of those 1408 active F/O's 824 get stapled to the bottom with NIC, that is over half of the active east F/O's that for sure will not vote anything in that contains NIC (716 pre merger and 108 newhires) The newhires will go no on NIC also since it would affect their bidding position on the east. Even if they are not allowed to vote the 716 completly left out of NIC is more than half the f/o ranks.

Even if all 1400 active west pilots votes a yes, the east would only need another 685 no votes even leaving out the 108 newhires to shoot down a NIC contract.

So since we estimate that 1000 active captains are gone in 9 years out of a total of 1238 captains, and we estimate that 250 active f/0's will retire in 9. That leaves 1158 f/o seats.

So best estimate, if the east does nothing and remains on LOA 93 and seperate ops, at the end of 9 years only 158 current F/O's (all newhires now plus 50 CEL pilots with 2004 sen numbers) will still be f/o's, and they would upgrade the next year since 200 plus go in 2021.

Under anything with NIC 824 get nothing but plopped on the bottom of the list to wait for every west pilot to upgrade before they can.
Under NIC the rest of the 584 current f/o's of which 250 will retire in 9 years or so, they would get slotted under a lot of younger west f/o's and most likely never upgrade before retire, or be delayed enough that they only got a year or so of capt.

That leaves 1238 current captains if the vote were held today on a NIC T/A that potentially could vote yes on a NIC contract if they didn't care about what they could bid monthly, vacation bid, or equipment bid. But since most of those would either be blocked off the widebodies or lose their senior block and vacation bidding power and probably be bumped to reserve or to commuting, I don't think we can expect more than a token few widebody captains to vote yes.

So the way I see it. If NIC ever comes on the property, it could only happen by court ordered method. Probably no quicker than 5 years from now at a minimum.

Even if the east loses the kasher loa 93 decision, I dont see the possiblility of getting anything with NIC voted in considering that the vast majority of the east is still better off with current conditions. And i don't see a court that may award NIC in 5 years or so bumping and flushing all the guys that will have upgraded prior to then. The company would not want a bump and flush either since they would have to retrain most of the active captains on the east instantly...which is impossible and very costly.

 

[Zone5]

I think you're wrong, but only because the court won't create a solution. Barring a change in USAPA, the courts will "dictate" that either the Nic must be used or that USAPA is free to negotiate a list with the company (not that I think that precedent is good - do you want the company involved in seniority integrations in the future?). Of course, if USAPA is free to negotiate seniority with the company, the result will be subject to two factors - the company's desired outcome and the union's DFR responsibilities, so if the result isn't the Nic you all could be right back in court.

Jim

No doubt about it. Ultimately, the court WILL end up crafting a solution by default. The process will continue to grind along, at a glacial pace, resulting at some point in a ratified JCBA. The then inevitable DFR's#?,?,?, will have to be litigated and eventually some modified version of the ratified JCBA will, in essence, be dictated by the court. By then, the whole SLI issue will be largely moot, due to the amount of time this process will consume and the West will have effectively inherited the airline anyway.

By the way, the company or any airline for that matter, could give a rats ass about seniority, it is a no cost items to them and their only interest in it, is its value as an issue to pit the two pilot groups against each other, to the company's obvious benefit.

In the meantime, the real winners will continue to be the lawyers and Team Tempe!

seajay

 

[BoeingBoy]

Especially in a situation where the actual number who would vote is unknown, one can play with the numbers to produce any result desired so I won't challenge your conclusion except to say that it's just an opinion. Without an actual vote there's no way to know if you're right or not, especially when dealing with a generic "contract" vs actual contract language specifying pay, benes, scheduling, etc. When you say that the majority of the east pilots are better of with "current conditions", that's compared to what? $150/hr group II capt or $180/hr? 3 weeks vacation or 7 weeks vacation? Etc. No one knows except for section 22. I'd speculate that whatever "future conditions" were contained in a potential contract could affect the outcome of a vote.

But I do have a couple of questions about the following two lines:

The east has 2446 active pilots currently (just counted them) and the west has about 1400 (from memory from a few days ago)

The east has 1238 active captains and 1408 active F/o's

Do you really mean "active" or do you mean line flying. The difference, of course, is the so-called "supervisory" pilots - check airmen and management pilots. "Active" includes all employed pilots while "line flying" is....well, it obvious what it means.

Jim

 

[Keroseneuser]

Especially in a situation where the actual number who would vote is unknown, one can play with the numbers to produce any result desired so I won't challenge your conclusion except to say that it's just an opinion. Without an actual vote there's no way to know if you're right or not, especially when dealing with a generic "contract" vs actual contract language specifying pay, benes, scheduling, etc. When you say that the majority of the east pilots are better of with "current conditions", that's compared to what? $150/hr group II capt or $180/hr? 3 weeks vacation or 7 weeks vacation? Etc. No one knows except for section 22. I'd speculate that whatever "future conditions" were contained in a potential contract could affect the outcome of a vote.

But I do have a couple of questions about the following two lines:



Do you really mean "active" or do you mean line flying. The difference, of course, is the so-called "supervisory" pilots - check airmen and management pilots. "Active" includes all employed pilots while "line flying" is....well, it obvious what it means.

Jim

These numbers are "active' per the latest bid by base and equipment. I don't think the check airmen are included in that but they might be. However their numbers are pretty small all in all. I have yet to meet a check airman that has any interest in NIC also. I don't think there are enough non check airmen mgmt pilots to affect a vote.

Ones out on medical or LOA are not included in this. But again their numbers are not huge. Again, even if every west pilot votes yes, there is only 600 and some no votes needed past the f/o's that get stapled to shoot down anything with NIC in it.

 

[traderjake]

Sure as hell don't need one from a traitor...You really would and should be fragged....

I'm shaking in my boots.

"Loyalty above all else.........except honor."...................Lieutenant Vincent Hardy from the movie Striking Distance

 

[BoeingBoy]

By the way, the company or any airline for that matter, could give a rats ass about seniority, it is a no cost items to them and their only interest in it, is its value as an issue to pit the two pilot groups against each other, to the company's obvious benefit.

I would disagree somewhat. Depending on how the SLI is done, it can be a cost item for the company. Unless you're an advocate of "training is a fixed cost", that is. Just take the two extremes - a straight ratio and a staple with both airlines pretty much identical equipment-wise. A straight ratio would require almost no extra training - everyone would be about where their seniority entitled them to be except for bases - while a staple would require training most of both sides pilots until everyone got where their new seniority number allowed them to be (disregarding QOL issues).

The other thing I keep seeing is the idea that "the west will own the airline". Not having a west seniority list, I think that overstates the attrition effects. Given the numbers I posted earlier, in 10-15 years there'll still be a not small contingent of east pilots and there won't still be 1600 or whatever number of west pilots. Even with the bandied about 50 west retirements per year, which I don't know is accurate, the west will be down to 900 or so pilots in 15 years vs the 600 or so east. There'll be more pilots hired after the merger than the total of east and west pilots. So if anyone is going to "own" the airline down the road, it won't be the west - it'll be the post merger "new hires".

Jim

 

[Reed Richards]

For a case that means nothing it sure gets quoted a lot.

I fail to follow your logic please explain. Is the company paying you the 3% raise? NO! That is part of the LOA 93 arbitration. So if Kasher rejects the argument. How are you going to get the 3%?

The worst case is you get nothing.
You say every group for themselves. How does usapa fairly represent the west if they are representing the east?

DFR!

Not everyone agreed with Parrella's logic the 3% was included in the Kasher decision. A group of concerned pilots filed their own grievance earlier this year, and the first hearing was with the Company last March. That grievance now stands as a firewall.

Since we have already completely lost LOA 93 (according to Move2CLT) looks like those pilots will now get to carry that to the next level.

RR

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

"Loyalty above all else.........except honor."...................Lieutenant Vincent Hardy from the movie Striking Distance

Honor and loyalty, two words almost exclusively used to wrap oneself in when one has no idea what one is talking about.

I wonder that the writers of that "quote" meant for you to think and not parrot.

For a "Cliff Notes" version to start, try Shakespeare in Macbeth, especially with the interaction between Macbeth and Banquo.

Getting your moral values from "modern" media can really be tricky.

Try this:

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

--- generally attributed to KungFuMonkey

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not everyone agreed with Parrella's logic the 3% was included in the Kasher decision. A group of concerned pilots filed their own grievance earlier this year, and the first hearing was with the Company last March. That grievance now stands as a firewall.

I would think that if Kasher rules completely for the company - no LOA 84 rates or annual increases - a precedent will have been set for the annual raise grievance. Can one arbitrator overturn another arbitrator's ruling?

Jim

 

[Rookie Jr]

And now you get to hear mine.

The roadblock as I see it to some sort of compromise that would get negotiations moving forward is that neither group wants to make the first move as they would appear weak to their supporters.

The key here is to find some sort of face saving mechanism that allows a little give and take to get one united Pilot group, one that is unified and strong enough to shut US Airways down if a reasonable contract isn't brought forward.

For the better part of six years you've tried to screw each other to no avail, you should have been focused in beating every last dime out of Doug Parker's wallet. But the flight deck is one of the most testosterone poisoned environments in the world, with egos & arrogance big enough to fill the cargo bays of an B747. So now we have one of the longest penis measuring contests in history and the problem is as you're finding out is size doesn't really matter. So now you're stuck.

This is not a battle of egos, nor a result of a "testosterone poisoned environment". It is a fight for what is right which was brought to the courts. The roadblock to some sort of compromise is that there already was a compromise. We don't need to get negotiations moving forward because that was already done back when we were earnestly following our merger policy and negotiating.

The east is stonewalling the result of a process followed completely and the result of an arbitrator's decision. The only face saving move can be their acceptance that they have done wrong. That, I'm sure, will never happen.

We have been fighting for the better part of six years but it is only the east trying to screw the west and the west protecting its interests. We are alreadiy depending on the court to settle this and, as Scott (Scooter) Kirby said recently in CLT we may have to wait 12 to 18 months. With that in mind a compromise is absolutely out of the question.

 

[Rookie Jr]

Yeah, seventeen year F/O would seem to be less qualified than a three year total time in a cockpit captain. Sounds to me like projection and may only apply to you.

Whatever happened to ordering a list by number of years in the company cockpit? I'd love to be in a cockpit jump seat with a nicholau mismatch as just getting to the runway would likely provide a tremendous amount of entertainment.

No problem. In that case the west pilot will return to the gate and have the childish and unprofessional east pilot taken off the aircraft.

 

[Black Swan]

You sling enough bs to recognize it, but you missed this time. Or you think I got that from Black Swan and he lied like usual...

QUOTE them??? I did - the numbers are the numbers. You are funny, though. You made two posts to call the facts BS, then a third to say "who cares." Well, two posts say you care...

Jim

What did I lie about? I told you most pilots on the East side will not take the Nic. What about that don't you understand? The 9th certainly recognized that fact, and wrote the following:

. It is, how-
ever, at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunc-
tion mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

OH YEA!, HPRET, can't even recognize one wall name (DCA VIET WAR), but hell they know it all! GOD BLESS YOU NON UNION JOB AND ALL! KMAMF!

Every time I am in DC, I visit the wall, a good friend's father is still MIA from 1966, went down in a Spad. Also, when I was a kid, my parents brought in two foster brothers (we already had 6 boys and 1 girl in the family) to live with us, while they were here, their brother died in Vietnam. Worked with a lot of vets at AWA, and I plan on assisting vets as they try to re-enter this lousy workforce.