US Pilots Labor Discussion

[N924PS]

And almost 1/3 of the east will be harmed beyond repair from their current stand alone prospects.

What about the remaining East pilots and all the West pilots being harmed beyond repair by the current standoff?

Contrary to opinions voiced by Luvthe9 and others, a Nic contract with appropriate enhancements will pass. Even many F/O's are growing tired of making 1989 wages, and living under the Albatross of LOA93.

C'mon USAPA, let's get a T/A and put it out for a vote.

 

[Move2CLT]

What enhancements?

 

[Move2CLT]

1. Thanks for the support!

2. You are not who I thought you were!

3. See you at "the BASH" on the 11th???

1. Donate or DOH I always say.

2. Usually the way it is.

3. 100%. Got the green light from the wife.

 

[N924PS]

What enhancements?

Pay, Vacation. Retirement, Sick Leave, LTD, Reserve System, et al.

 

[nic4us]

That admin leave is a great deal!

Don't I wish!!!!

Nope, I actually have to make the $2/hr per diem typically three weeks a month on a 4 day trip. I sneak out of the neighborhood on fri and get back on mon. Junior guy like me doing weekend shifts.

But, I am around my kids school so much, I know the other parents think I don't work.

 

[nic4us]

1. Donate or DOH I always say.

2. Usually the way it is.

3. 100%. Got the green light from the wife.

Bring the wife along and introduce yourselves to me.

I will be easily recognizable as the guy having the most fun soaking up the AWA comradery.

See ya there.

 

[nycbusdriver]

ALPA's MO is always to yell "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!",and "The membership isn't smart enough to be trusted to vote correctly on things while the sky is falling." What's new?

Management teams here have always used the same trick, and the pilots have always fallen for it:

1. Say there is a crisis. If there is not one, then create one first.
2. Set a deadline, but be sure it's very soon.
3. Tell everybody we are toast if we don't do what they say before the deadline.

The previous pilot union invariably bought into the hype, and always failed to do due diligence on the credibility of the crisis and management's story.

Hook, line and sinker, we fell for it as a union and as a group (see LOA 93: "Let my daddy vote.")

Theoretically, the pension scam cannot happen with USAPA, since the membership must be polled for agreements like that. (I agree with A320, though, that had the membership been polled in 2003 over the pension, we still would have lost it. That doesn't exonerate the MEC for giving it away, literally, in the dark of night.)

I say theoretically, because right now, "theoretically," the BPR is the driving force behind the union. Yet, the president seems to have an uncanny ability to act unilaterally in situations that appear to be inappropriate to the decisions being made. If another "pension-type" situation arose, and the president decided for the union by personal fiat, would the BPR still remain as silent as they do now? Yes, IMHO.

 

[nic4us]

Doubtful. Parker's attempt at Delta would not have failed and AWA would now be Delta. The only reason that merger failed was because the Delta pilots were smart enough to want no part of east pilots and stood together to reject them.

Parker and Kirby know this is true but always try to placate the east out of fear of a meltdown. They have been coddling the east for some time now and I believe that is about to come to an end.

At this time, Cleary was called to Tempe, and met with I would assume the top LCC officers. He then immediately ran to the 9th, who had already heard oral arguements over Addington, and asked for an emergency decision to be made, because usapa claimed the issue was holding up an airline merger.

If it ever comes out that usapa (i.e. Cleary) screwed us all over in the Delta deal, the West will be the least of Cleary's worries.

Oh...I just thought of something..isn't there a company DJ request scheduled, where the West is involved and will likely have the right to cross examine witnesses under oath? hmmm...wonder if Parker, Kirby, Isom, Bular, Hogg or any others will be willing to perjure themselves for usapa?

 

[Keroseneuser]

Oh I see. We shouldn't care about the PID when the merger took place, BUT should rather make the PID more towards when all the furloughed pilots returned to the NEW US AIRWAYS. So when the situation improves for any one group, you should randomly move the PID????? Obtuse level now officially raised.

The NIC WILL prevail in court because there is no other way for it to legally go. In the mean time you, I and all of the LCC pilots will have lost HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars in wages, contract improvements, and time off. All for the ill conceived chase for DOH (which our "lawyer" said was a slam dunk, is now leaving with over 10 million of our dues $$).

USAPA = How can we spend your hard earned dues money today?

Again, you are letting your emotions get in the way of what I am saying.

All I said is at this point in time, 2011. Barring any hefty increase in pay from the company, it looks like it would be nearly impossible to get a yes vote from the majority on any contract that includes NIC. For the simple fact that nobody cares what the PID was in 2005 when it comes to voting for what is best for them. The same can be said of anything that contained DOH. The west guys could care less what the situation was at some point in the past. they will vote what is best for them.

What the courts would look at in a given situation has NOTHING to do with how somebody would vote.

If you wanted to play the what if game, there are plenty of scenarios that would get the west captains to vote yes on a DOH contract. For instance say Southwest payrates, coupled with a fence that protects the current PHX captain seats from any bump and flush or schedule reductions. Presto you have 700 to 800 west pilot yes votes for DOH.

Would that trigger lawsuits from junior west guys? Sure. But again what a court might say or rule is different from what a majority will vote for.

Tempe can negotiate this problem away and integrate these lists tomorrow, and do it either with NIC or DOH and get a yes vote from majority. Just a matter of how much money they would have to spend vs the legal/work disruption fallout aspects of said agreement. Tempe does not care if it is NIC or DOH, they are for whatever causes them the least problems for a given amount of money.

Now having said all that. And seeing the weak token contract offer we have seen to date in the kirby proposal, and the lack of any real negotiations from the company. We must assume that Tempe has zero interest in getting this situation resolved at this time. There has been no incentive from them that would get either side to budge from their respective positions. Personally I think things are going just as Doug wants them to, at least for now. If we see a new merger pop up that requires a unified seniority list for it to be completed, well then I suspect we would see all kinds of offers from Tempe.

 

[eastcoast]

The point I was making is nobody cares what the situation was in 2005 when it comes time to vote on something that might have the NIC in it. Just how it will affect them.

So wrong. Everyone's prime directive is not "Gimme Mine!" Many of us have a wider field of vision in life. Speak for yourself.

And almost 1/3 of the east will be harmed beyond repair from their current stand alone prospects. The rest will be harmed enough that they won't vote a NIC in.

I just can't understand why it is so hard to grasp that you and the few on this board do not speak for everyone. The harm USAPA has caused us has now reached the tipping point compared to the arbitrated award. I agree that the 1/3 who BELIEVE they will be harmed beyond repair will continue to fight, even if it means holding the union and the rest of us hostage. The rest would make their own decision if given the chance, based on a simple cost to benefit analysis and individual moral basis. The problem is that our current dictatorship will not allow that. IMO the union no longer functions at the will of the membership. They function out of fear of losing face and control, to the detriment of many.

NIC may very well prevail in court. But I think that course of action even if NIC wins will be so far in the future to end up a token one. In 10 years most of the issues on the east side will be fixed by attrition anyhow.

In this scenario the junior west pilots really do have the most to lose by pushing NIC or nothing.

Lets not forget that it was our MEC's "all or nothing" stance that put us where we are today.

I know a lot of guys and gals I fly with think that time is on our side. The reality of the perceived attrition will be disappointing for those who hang their hat on it. For many of us the attrition will do little, considering where we already are and what's been lost in $ and quality of life thanks to Cleary.

I also know that many of my peers are ready try something different once Kasher rules. They were willing to wait it out that far for the sake of the most junior, but no farther. So you better pray for a Kasher win. Because IMO, absent that you will see a card drive and enough of us voting with the west to force a change. And that change will probably mean a better contract with the arbitrated award.

You should remember that having the "majority" is not the power you think it is. Just like this country's political system, the staunchest Democrats and Republicans have become irrelevant. It is the moderates, the independents, the swing voters that decide the tide. There are far more of us than you like to let on around here.

 

[Code Name V]

Parker & Kirby has ALSO stated NUMEROUS times in recent Crew News sessions that they sleep soundly EVERY NIGHT knowing which way the LOA 93 Arbitration will be decided.

Which set of statements are you going to believe? Now Robert Mann (Airline Expert vs. Airline CEO/CFO with a dog in the seniority fight) stated that AWA was truly financially viable. Further stating that at the time of the merger announcement that AWA was growing, earning $$, getting new airplanes, hiring and upgrading pilots.

HMMMMMMM.......Which statement(s) do we believe? Which expert is really an expert......?

There is only one possible way that anyone can positively know the outcome of a judges decision before it is released. Are you implying impropriety on Parker and Kirby's part? Surly you couldn't think they could say...pay 10M to save 200M???

V

 

[Keroseneuser]

So wrong. Everyone's prime directive is not "Gimme Mine!" Many of us have a wider field of vision in life. Speak for yourself.



I just can't understand why it is so hard to grasp that you and the few on this board do not speak for everyone. The harm USAPA has caused us has now reached the tipping point compared to the arbitrated award. I agree that the 1/3 who BELIEVE they will be harmed beyond repair will continue to fight, even if it means holding the union and the rest of us hostage. The rest would make their own decision if given the chance, based on a simple cost to benefit analysis and individual moral basis. The problem is that our current dictatorship will not allow that. IMO the union no longer functions at the will of the membership. They function out of fear of losing face and control, to the detriment of many.



Lets not forget that it was our MEC's "all or nothing" stance that put us where we are today.

I know a lot of guys and gals I fly with think that time is on our side. The reality of the perceived attrition will be disappointing for those who hang their hat on it. For many of us the attrition will do little, considering where we already are and what's been lost in $ and quality of life thanks to Cleary.

I also know that many of my peers are ready try something different once Kasher rules. They were willing to wait it out that far for the sake of the most junior, but no farther. So you better pray for a Kasher win. Because IMO, absent that you will see a card drive and enough of us voting with the west to force a change. And that change will probably mean a better contract with the arbitrated award.

You should remember that having the "majority" is not the power you think it is. Just like this country's political system, the staunchest Democrats and Republicans have become irrelevant. It is the moderates, the independents, the swing voters that decide the tide.

Just an observation. You are either the most unpopular pilot there is on the east list. Or you are a west pilot pretending to be an eastie on here.

I agree if kasher is a loss we will see pressure being put on USAPA for a different approach. It is the "enough of us voting with the west" that puts your eastie identity in question. That kind of sentiment simply does not exist anywhere on the line.

 

[N924PS]

So wrong. Everyone's prime directive is not "Gimme Mine!" Many of us have a wider field of vision in life. Speak for yourself.



I just can't understand why it is so hard to grasp that you and the few on this board do not speak for everyone. The harm USAPA has caused us has now reached the tipping point compared to the arbitrated award. I agree that the 1/3 who BELIEVE they will be harmed beyond repair will continue to fight, even if it means holding the union and the rest of us hostage. The rest would make their own decision if given the chance, based on a simple cost to benefit analysis and individual moral basis. The problem is that our current dictatorship will not allow that. IMO the union no longer functions at the will of the membership. They function out of fear of losing face and control, to the detriment of many.



Lets not forget that it was our MEC's "all or nothing" stance that put us where we are today.

I know a lot of guys and gals I fly with think that time is on our side. The reality of the perceived attrition will be disappointing for those who hang their hat on it. For many of us the attrition will do little, considering where we already are and what's been lost in $ and quality of life thanks to Cleary.

I also know that many of my peers are ready try something different once Kasher rules. They were willing to wait it out that far for the sake of the most junior, but no farther. So you better pray for a Kasher win. Because IMO, absent that you will see a card drive and enough of us voting with the west to force a change. And that change will probably mean a better contract with the arbitrated award.

You should remember that having the "majority" is not the power you think it is. Just like this country's political system, the staunchest Democrats and Republicans have become irrelevant. It is the moderates, the independents, the swing voters that decide the tide. There are far more of us than you like to let on around here.

Excellent post.

There are more of us that share your sentiments than the rabid USAPAphiles think.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Excellent post.

There are more of us that share your sentiments than the rabid USAPAphiles think.

I have not seen anything on the line to suggest a movement towards accepting anything with NIC in it. However I am just one pilot and not a rabid USAPA supporter.

So, for you and the guys like you, what would it take as an offer from the company to get you to vote in a NIC contract? that is what I take "voting with the west" to mean in this context since they have never expressed anything else on these boards.

Specifics please. what payrate, protections, work rules etc. Convince me, I am open to new ideas to get this mess behind us.

 

[A320 Driver]

Parker & Kirby has ALSO stated NUMEROUS times in recent Crew News sessions that they sleep soundly EVERY NIGHT knowing which way the LOA 93 Arbitration will be decided.

Which set of statements are you going to believe? Now Robert Mann (Airline Expert vs. Airline CEO/CFO with a dog in the seniority fight) stated that AWA was truly financially viable. Further stating that at the time of the merger announcement that AWA was growing, earning $$, getting new airplanes, hiring and upgrading pilots.

HMMMMMMM.......Which statement(s) do we believe? Which expert is really an expert......?

YOU are the ones with all the faith in Parker...when it is convenient.

Driver <_<