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YOU are the ones with all the faith in Parker...when it is convenient.

Oh, there are those on both sides who will quote Parker's words as though they're gospel when it's convenient and then claim to never believe a word he says when that's convenient...

Jim
 
Just an observation. You are either the most unpopular pilot there is on the east list. Or you are a west pilot pretending to be an eastie on here.

I agree if kasher is a loss we will see pressure being put on USAPA for a different approach. It is the "enough of us voting with the west" that puts your eastie identity in question. That kind of sentiment simply does not exist anywhere on the line.


Exactly. There are 3 of them that support the west position. 924BS, Traitorjake, and eastcoastposer. 😀 😀 One comment, what would USAPA have to do with a LOA 93 pay loss anyway? It wasn't USAPA that got us in it, it was certain east pilots and ALPA that supported it. USAPA is to be commended for fighting the battle. I guarantee ALPA would tell you to take the Nic or negotiate out of it.
 
Just an observation. You are either the most unpopular pilot there is on the east list. Or you are a west pilot pretending to be an eastie on here.

I agree if kasher is a loss we will see pressure being put on USAPA for a different approach. It is the "enough of us voting with the west" that puts your eastie identity in question. That kind of sentiment simply does not exist anywhere on the line.
Your observation, and other people's attacks here do not offend me. Nor do they affect in any way, my decisions or opinions. I've seen enough examples of the tactics of those on this board who question another's identity. So forgive me if I decline to engage in that debate.

Something to consider though. Since the conversations in the cockpits I'm in do not revolve solely around the seniority dispute nor union politics, and since there is a certain amount of professionalism and crew concept that dictates keeping the peace in the spirit of safety and open communication, you may encounter those who seem to agree with you on the surface, but would not necessarily support your views if given an actual vote. Not disagreeing with you in the work environment does not constitute implicit approval. Hence the sentiment may very well exist on the line, but may not be expressed in your presence.

I'm sure you are smart enough to figure out what I mean. Casting those aside who disagree with you, as being unpopular or imposters is a simplification that is convenient but not objective. I've said it before here and elsewhere... the peer-pressure-based unity of our pilot group has been a poison to our collective well being for decades.
 
If the court tells the company on Dec 1 that it is legally obligated to use the Nic then that will be it. Over. The east can suck it up and move on or reject every contract offer that comes along. You will suck it up. If you don't the next merger will include the Nic anyway.

There will be an appeal to the 9th and ....well....we know what they said!!!!!

NICDOA
NPJB
 
Hence the sentiment may very well exist on the line, but may not be expressed in your presence.

As i said a few posts ago. I have seen nothing on the line to suggest a movement of any kind to accept a contract containing NIC.

If that movement does indeed exist. I am interested in the specifics of it.

What payrate, protections, and work rules would it take to have you vote "yes" on a NIC contract?

I am not trying to bait you into anything, since i have always said Tempe CAN pay enough to get a NIC voted in. I just don't think Doug is willing to cough up enough to do it.

I am interested in your answer to the above though. You seem to be somewhere around me in the pack as far as how bad the NIC would be judging from your statements. meaning even if NIC went into effect tomorrow it would not be a huge hit.

We know for the bottom 1/3 a yes is probably not possible short of being the highest paid airline out there. What would it take for you?
 
Grievance Committee Update (LOA 93): October 31, 2011

This update is designed to inform the pilot group regarding the current status of Grievance LOA 93. We wish to start by unequivocally stating that at the time of writing we have not received either a decision or any form of indication as to how the Arbitrator will rule in this case. The countless rumors that have been spread in relation to this case are completely without merit and amount to pure fabrication. The high profile nature of this case has triggered many avenues for speculation and misinformation that have been falsely attributed to "sources in the know." We are aware that this misinformation has ranged from statements that the decision has already been received through to the nature of that decision. All of these rumors are false and we ask that you ignore all of these sources of misinformation. When there is definitive news then it will be released by the Union's Grievance Committee, and in the meantime, all other sources of information should be disregarded.

It is not our normal practice to discuss the work of our System Boards until a final decision has been reached, but the heightened interest generated by this case has prompted us to release this status update. Closing Briefs have now been submitted to the Arbitrator for over a year but, although this may seem a long time, those Briefs were predicated on hundreds of pages of exhibits and hearing transcript, all of which the Arbitrator will need to review in order to reach a balanced decision. There has recently been a brief telephone call between the Board Members and the Arbitrator during which minor factual matters were discussed, but there was no discussion of any issues relating directly to the final decision.

It is not uncommon for arbitrators to take many months to issue a decision in cases with a considerably smaller evidentiary record and with a considerably less far-reaching impact than LOA 93. As we have previously reported, the Railway Labor Act does not contain a definitive time requirement between arbitration hearing and the ultimate decision. Once a dispute has been properly submitted to the Arbitrator, he or she has complete administrative control over issues such as scheduling and the time that elapses after the hearing and before the final decision is rendered. Prior to the issuance of the final decision, a draft decision will be released to the System Board Members (Union and Company). At that stage, either Party has the option of requesting an Executive Session. Executive Sessions may be conducted either telephonically or in person and they enable the Parties to ensure that their respective positions are fully examined and considered in the final decision.

There is no doubt that once a draft decision is received in the current case at least one of the Parties, and possibly both Parties, will request an Executive Session. It is only after the Arbitrator has heard and considered what the Parties have to say in that Executive Session that he will render the final decision.

We are aware that this is a case that has generated unprecedented interest and that our pilots are keen to be kept apprised of all developments. We understand the significance of this case to the pilot group and we will disseminate any information, good or bad, in as timely a fashion as the protocols of this process permit. Any perceived silence on the matter is either because there are no developments to report, or because the System Board Members are bound to honor the requirement of confidentiality during the normal procedural stages. Pending the Arbitrator's final decision and his formal release of the Parties from the confidential process, the Board Members will be prohibited from discussing the draft decision and prohibited from even suggesting that a decision may have been reached at that stage. The Grievance Committee and the Union Board Members are committed to respecting the integrity of this process in order to ensure that draft decisions are subject to correction and in order to ensure the Union's continued credibility before the arbitrators who are utilized on this property.

We are all eager to have this case resolved and we understand the importance of the issue to the pilot group. Regardless of the outcome, the Grievance Committee and the Union leadership are committed to informing you of developments at the earliest opportunity.
 
Exactly. There are 3 of them that support the west position. 924BS, Traitorjake, and eastcoastposer. 😀 😀 One comment, what would USAPA have to do with a LOA 93 pay loss anyway? It wasn't USAPA that got us in it, it was certain east pilots and ALPA that supported it. USAPA is to be commended for fighting the battle. I guarantee ALPA would tell you to take the Nic or negotiate out of it.
Yes, you must be right. Only 3 of us on the entire east side. Keep believing that if it serves you. Of course one might question your identity as a pilot considering such a naive belief.

Any reference to loss by me refers to the loss of a raise and work rule improvements that have not materialized. Not LOA93. ALPA National supported our MEC to make our own decisions and govern ourselves. I supported USAPA initially as I would support a new President even if I voted for the other guy. I believed that perhaps we could reverse the damage done by OUR MEC who insisted on shackling our NC to DOH or nothing. That support quickly waned as the scorched earth policy formed.

The LOA93 arbitration was a worthy cause because IMO it is separate from the seniority dispute. If the company is legally bound to "unfreeze" our pay I am all for holding them accountable. I do not agree with using it as a means to buy time in delaying our responsibility to fairly represent our west counterparts. Since again IMO it is a weak case and will probably fail, I see it as a catalyst to push those on the fence away from USAPA and away from supporting a failed dictatorship. Pay and work rule improvements with the arbitrated list that gives 2/3 of the combined attrition is better than the status quo for many of us.

That being said, I realize also that a Kasher win will satisfy enough soles who only care about money, to stay the course. In that case the court battles will continue until a winner is announced.
 
Grievance Committee Update (LOA 93): October 31, 2011

This update is designed to inform the pilot group regarding the current status of Grievance LOA 93. We wish to start by unequivocally stating that at the time of writing we have not received either a decision or any form of indication as to how the Arbitrator will rule in this case. The countless rumors that have been spread in relation to this case are completely without merit and amount to pure fabrication. The high profile nature of this case has triggered many avenues for speculation and misinformation that have been falsely attributed to "sources in the know." We are aware that this misinformation has ranged from statements that the decision has already been received through to the nature of that decision. All of these rumors are false and we ask that you ignore all of these sources of misinformation. When there is definitive news then it will be released by the Union's Grievance Committee, and in the meantime, all other sources of information should be disregarded.

It is not our normal practice to discuss the work of our System Boards until a final decision has been reached, but the heightened interest generated by this case has prompted us to release this status update. Closing Briefs have now been submitted to the Arbitrator for over a year but, although this may seem a long time, those Briefs were predicated on hundreds of pages of exhibits and hearing transcript, all of which the Arbitrator will need to review in order to reach a balanced decision. There has recently been a brief telephone call between the Board Members and the Arbitrator during which minor factual matters were discussed, but there was no discussion of any issues relating directly to the final decision.

It is not uncommon for arbitrators to take many months to issue a decision in cases with a considerably smaller evidentiary record and with a considerably less far-reaching impact than LOA 93. As we have previously reported, the Railway Labor Act does not contain a definitive time requirement between arbitration hearing and the ultimate decision. Once a dispute has been properly submitted to the Arbitrator, he or she has complete administrative control over issues such as scheduling and the time that elapses after the hearing and before the final decision is rendered. Prior to the issuance of the final decision, a draft decision will be released to the System Board Members (Union and Company). At that stage, either Party has the option of requesting an Executive Session. Executive Sessions may be conducted either telephonically or in person and they enable the Parties to ensure that their respective positions are fully examined and considered in the final decision.

There is no doubt that once a draft decision is received in the current case at least one of the Parties, and possibly both Parties, will request an Executive Session. It is only after the Arbitrator has heard and considered what the Parties have to say in that Executive Session that he will render the final decision.

We are aware that this is a case that has generated unprecedented interest and that our pilots are keen to be kept apprised of all developments. We understand the significance of this case to the pilot group and we will disseminate any information, good or bad, in as timely a fashion as the protocols of this process permit. Any perceived silence on the matter is either because there are no developments to report, or because the System Board Members are bound to honor the requirement of confidentiality during the normal procedural stages. Pending the Arbitrator's final decision and his formal release of the Parties from the confidential process, the Board Members will be prohibited from discussing the draft decision and prohibited from even suggesting that a decision may have been reached at that stage. The Grievance Committee and the Union Board Members are committed to respecting the integrity of this process in order to ensure that draft decisions are subject to correction and in order to ensure the Union's continued credibility before the arbitrators who are utilized on this property.

We are all eager to have this case resolved and we understand the importance of the issue to the pilot group. Regardless of the outcome, the Grievance Committee and the Union leadership are committed to informing you of developments at the earliest opportunity.


What happened to the East pilot rumors that USAPA had won the LOA 93 grievance? B) Oooppps!
 
There will be an appeal to the 9th and ....well....we know what they said!!!!!

NICDOA
NPJB
Completely different lawsuit, completely different fact pattern, completely different parties. Believe what you want but these lawsuits are apples and oranges.
 
As i said a few posts ago. I have seen nothing on the line to suggest a movement of any kind to accept a contract containing NIC.

If that movement does indeed exist. I am interested in the specifics of it.

What payrate, protections, and work rules would it take to have you vote "yes" on a NIC contract?

I am not trying to bait you into anything, since i have always said Tempe CAN pay enough to get a NIC voted in. I just don't think Doug is willing to cough up enough to do it.

I am interested in your answer to the above though. You seem to be somewhere around me in the pack as far as how bad the NIC would be judging from your statements. meaning even if NIC went into effect tomorrow it would not be a huge hit.

We know for the bottom 1/3 a yes is probably not possible short of being the highest paid airline out there. What would it take for you?

I wouldn't call it a "movement." As I said, IMO many are in a holding pattern waiting to hear from Kasher. Any "movement" will come after a loss.

For clarification, don't assume Nic does not affect me much. Your idea of a huge hit and mine may vary greatly. I do not look at the SLI by raw numbers. Relative position by equipment and status is a pretty fair starting point IMO. 2/3 of the upgrades is a fair starting point. Especially considering our precarious position at the time, and what little we gave Nicolau to work with. The rest I will have to get back to you on when I have more time.
 
Come to think of it, only 4. You forgot USA320pilot.

I don't support an East or West pilot position. I support integrity, honor and character such as not breaking a promise, not violating Section 4(1) of the Transition Agreement (or the pilot's contract) that requires the Nicolau Award to be implemented, and not having the majority attempt to impose their will on a minority designed to staple nearly an entire pilot group to the bottom of the joint seniority list for a person's own personal gain.

Finally, I believe it's wrong for a segment of the pilot group, regardless of where they're based -- east or west of the Mississippi River -- to be an impediment to a new contract that would provide all of its members better pay, a better quality of life, and not be an impediment to a merger with another legacy carrier that would provide all of the pilots (other employees too) with career job security while working for a premier worldwide airline.

It's really all about character and integrity for me...or the lack thereof. It's not about hurting others for my own personal gain.

USA320Pilot
 
I don't support an East or West pilot position. I support integrity, honor and character such as not breaking a promise, not violating Section 4(1) of the Transition Agreement (or the pilot's contract) that requires the Nicolau Award to be implemented, and not having the majority attempt to impose their will on a minority designed staple nearly an entire pilot group to the bottom of the joint seniority list for a person's own personal gain.

Finally, I believe it's wrong for a segment of the pilot group, regardless of where they're based -- east or west of the Mississippi River -- to be an impediment to a new contract that would provide all of its members better pay, a better quality of life, and not be an impediment to a merger with another legacy carrier that would provide all of the pilots (other employees too) with career job security while working for a premier worldwide airline.

It's really all about character and integrity for me...or the lack thereof. It's not about hurting others for my own personal gain.

USA320Pilot
Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but were you not a big USAPA supporter prior to the CBA vote?
 
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