US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

Are those AOL folks telling you guys that? Most west pilots realize the the NIC is never going to happen. But it is OK to keep wishing.

Another clueless post from another clueless usapa supporter who has no idea of the position he is in.

Allow me to enlighten you.


Those AOL folks are "most West pilots".

Mike Soha..P0040...#10
Rod Brackin..P0406...#123
George Maliga..P1146...#397

 

[USA320Pilot]

Back of The Trip Sheet Update for 11 Nov 2011: ALPA's AMR Eagle Pilots Reach Tentative New Contract

Dear Subscriber,

Back of The Trip Sheet Update: November 11, 2011: ALPA's AMR Eagle Pilots recently negotiated a new contract that provides its members enhanced job security that should protect a pilot's job for a minimum of 10 years. This agreement and Eagle's flow through to American Airlines delivers a stable long term employment platform for Eagle's pilots. As RJ pilots narrow the distance or surpass US Airways' pilots in pay, benefits, and job security protections has the time come to elect a national, major airline pilot union that has a long history of success with legacy commercial airlines?

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[fodase]

I've been thinking about this. Maybe USAPA needs to change it's position to accepting the NIC, but with enough conditions and restrictions so as not to cause harm to the East pilots. Let the East pilots capture the attrition on the East and fence them away from PHX. How's that grab you?

Driver B)

What about the harm the west pilots have suffered? How does usapa take care of that?

 

[luvthe9]

What about the harm the west pilots have suffered? How does usapa take care of that?

Yea riight, No NIC ever is the bottom line. WYE RIVER!!!!

 

[nic4us]

I've been thinking about this. Maybe USAPA needs to change it's position to accepting the NIC, but with enough conditions and restrictions so as not to cause harm to the East pilots. Let the East pilots capture the attrition on the East and fence them away from PHX. How's that grab you?

Driver B)

Driver,

I do not want to sound flippant, but..

1. usapa needs to change its position and forward the Nic as its bargaining proposal.

2. the east is not harmed by the Nic.

3. the east has already had a 6 year fence which will likely go to 7-8 years, and if usapa does not get with numbers 1 & 2, the remedy sought will be a system wide bump and flush.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Let the East pilots capture the attrition on the East and fence them away from PHX. How's that grab you?

Sadly, the east MC said that they were confident that they would be able to achieve that plus WB protection...until they were forced into the "DOH or nothing" corner. That insistence on DOH with minor C&R's resulted in arbitration and the rest is history. If, and that's a big IF considering USAPA has claimed victory on the DOH or Nic question, USAPA were to accept the Nic with protections for east attrition - actual seat attrition, not raw number attrition - I think there's a chance that the west wouldn't file DFR II but remember that it only takes one pilot to file a DFR suit and tinkering with the Nic risks that.

Of course, the devil is always in the details. For example, suppose the east had attrition protection - how would you handle a bid that had east attrition but that also reduced the headcount by more than the attrition? Would east pilots be guaranteed upward movement because of the attrition while the west pilots suffered all the pain of the reduced headcount? Without concrete C&R's it's easy to say "just protect the east attrition" without having to face the nitty-gritty of how that would actually work in various situations.

Jim

 

[cactusboy53]

By the time the nic is implemented you will be a grandfather and your choice will be drive thru or counter... OK cacti boy sorry I picked on you I'll give you one. NYSE: GNRC or GENERAC HOLDING make yourself a few bucks for your retirement your gonna need it.

Already a Grandpa X2, Mic. The courts will sooner rather than later tell Mr. Parker what we all already know. He will then have to do the thing that you die hard USAPIAN's fear the most: send out a TA to ratify a new contract with an unrestricted Nicolau Award. It will pass with enough money. Personally I won't vote YEA until it's the Kirby Proposal (with some slight protections for SCOPE, etc.) and at least current DAL wage.

 

[A320 Driver]

2. the east is not harmed by the Nic.

Depends on which side of the Mississippi you are sitting on. That obviously is YOUR opinion that is not shared by many on the East. We get it. Many of you want OUT of PHX courtesy of the NIC.

Driver B)

 

[nic4us]

Yea riight, No NIC ever is the bottom line. WYE RIVER!!!!

Your buddies Swan and Underpants are going to be cryin a "WYE RIVER", when it is made undeniably apparent to you morons that the Nic is not going away, and Kasher tells them that when you un-FREEZE something...it is simply no longer FROZEN.

 

[A320 Driver]

Sadly, the east MC said that they were confident that they would be able to achieve that plus WB protection...until they were forced into the "DOH or nothing" corner. That insistence on DOH with minor C&R's resulted in arbitration and the rest is history. If, and that's a big IF considering USAPA has claimed victory on the DOH or Nic question, USAPA were to accept the Nic with protections for east attrition - actual seat attrition, not raw number attrition - I think there's a chance that the west wouldn't file DFR II but remember that it only takes one pilot to file a DFR suit and tinkering with the Nic risks that.

Jim

I don't think there is any chance that DFR II won't be filed anyway. Many on the West want damages now. But you are right, it only takes one. And if that one has any luck at all, the rest will throw in with him.

I keep fishing for a compromise just to see where we are and it seems we are where we always are...SADD. Same Argument, Different Day.

Driver B)

 

[aquagreen73s]

Sadly, the east MC said that they were confident that they would be able to achieve that plus WB protection...until they were forced into the "DOH or nothing" corner. That insistence on DOH with minor C&R's resulted in arbitration and the rest is history. If, and that's a big IF considering USAPA has claimed victory on the DOH or Nic question, USAPA were to accept the Nic with protections for east attrition - actual seat attrition, not raw number attrition - I think there's a chance that the west wouldn't file DFR II but remember that it only takes one pilot to file a DFR suit and tinkering with the Nic risks that.

Jim

Actual captain seat attrition on the East is very close to a 2:1 ratio, East to West. (I know you know that Jim, but too many on the East fail to run their own numbers and see for themselves how Nicolau did account for East captain attrition). Nicolau used a linear estimation over time whereas what you propose Jim would be an exact calculation for vacancies. With the benefit of MATLAB or MATHCAD, there is no reason why we can't plug in every pilot with their respective seat and generate a polynomial function that tells us exactly what side is eligible for what captain vacancies system wide based on retiring captains.

Guess what....the polynomial would look very linear with only minor deviations above or below the line. Ergo, Nic got it right.

 

[cactusboy53]

I've been thinking about this. Maybe USAPA needs to change it's position to accepting the NIC, but with enough conditions and restrictions so as not to cause harm to the East pilots. Let the East pilots capture the attrition on the East and fence them away from PHX. How's that grab you?

Driver B)

FINAL & BINDING ARBITRATION. PERIOD. An UNRESTRICTED NICOLAU AWARD IS THE COMPROMISE. PERIOD. See you in court. Parker needs this nonsense done that you kids have started. The courts will likely tell him what we all already know: He will have to use the list delivered by the former CBA, as it is the product of an agreed upon process by all parties.

If for some reason the courts hold LCC harmless, and LCC accepts ANYTHING other than an unrestricted Nicolau Award....then USAPA will be the bad side of ANOTHER losing DFR......ALONE.

We Westies see that the dim light bulb is getting a few watts, but for some reason the SIMPLE REALITY of the situation that you are in just hasn't quite sunk in yet. We're sitting in PHX with a bucket of popcorn and some beverages, pulling up a chair to watch the festivities.

You kids can construct a nice white picket fence around USAPA headquarters. Paint the words "conditions", "restrictions", "harm to the east", & "capture attrition" to you heart's content. How's that "grab you"?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I keep fishing for a compromise just to see where we are and it seems we are where we always are...SADD. Same Argument, Different Day.

You're right and this will end when the courts finally decide that the Nic is it or when a USAPA proposal meets the DFR test. What you see as compromise, the west sees as compromise to a compromise - Nic didn't accept either side's position. You're basically asking them to do what the east should have learned NOT to do long ago - negotiate against themselves. You and some faction of east pilots might accept Nic with attrition protection, but others on the east would say that that wasn't good enough - a compromise to the compromise of the comprise was needed, so the west is expected to lower the bar yet again. Repeat until enough on the east will accept the Nic as altered. So where do they draw the line? Compromise enough and the Nic starts to work as though it was a DOH list.

Jim

 

[cactusboy53]

Yea riight, No NIC ever is the bottom line. WYE RIVER!!!!

Why ask WYE? Try a TA-lite: The Kirby Proposal with some improvements, an unrestricted Nicolau seniority list, and current DAL wage. That contract would be ratified by an UNBELIEVABLE percentage. Now I know you think my prediction is preposterous, but it is more likely that would pass vs. the trumped up "address-gate" accused getting "fired" wouldn't you agree?

 

[aquagreen73s]

You're right and this will end when the courts finally decide that the Nic is it or when a USAPA proposal meets the DFR test. What you see as compromise, the west sees as compromise to a compromise - Nic didn't accept either side's position. You're basically asking them to do what the east should have learned NOT to do long ago - negotiate against themselves. You and some faction of east pilots might accept Nic with attrition protection, but others on the east would say that that wasn't good enough - a compromise to the compromise of the comprise was needed, so the west is expected to lower the bar yet again. Repeat until enough on the east will accept the Nic as altered. So where do they draw the line? Compromise enough and the Nic starts to work as though it was a DOH list.

Jim

Very well explained Jim. You articulated exactly what the vast majority of the West understands to be the reality of this seniority dispute. The West contract is starting to lack in pay as compared to other airlines, but the rest of it is pretty darn good. I and the vast majority of West pilots are content to wait this out. It's the East and Parker who want a contract. Well then, accept the Nicolau and maybe we can move forward, otherwise we'll see everyone in court.