US Pilots Labor Discussion

[prechilill]

There was NEVER some deep dark motive to intentionally hurt the West. It was more about what we "deserved" giving what we had been through. Driver B)

Thank you, this statement explains why we are where we are. It explains why negotiations and mediation were basically useless- you can't go into either with the above mindset and expect a resolution. It explains the reaction to Nicolau and the path you all chose to go down and why we are where we are five years later. You guys have done it to yourselves.

 

[Reed Richards]

How you got that out of what I said is beyond me. Go back and look at the pages of C&R's in the Kagel award - all to protect the PI pilots. The problem wasn't lack of C&R's, it was the US MC and Resource Planning implementation of those C&R's that voided most of the protection that they were supposed to give. I could fill at least two pages of this forum with examples, but it'd be wasted effort - those like you and clubbie would believe what you want anyway.



So you would have supported protection for non-attrition based upgrades for PI pilots? After gladly taking the PI 737-400 deliveries with their accompanying upgrades? Remember the "phantom bids" that awarded "phantom" upgrades to PI pilots during 1989 because of the 734's going north? By the time the groups integrated on 1/1/1990, one - yes one - PI pilot held one of those "phantom" bids. Even then, one of your northern pals told me to my face how unfair the "phantom" bids were since they produced PI captains who didn't deserve it. It was like the US pilots had paid for those 734's out of their own pocket so owned the upgrades.

You're as funny as clubbie.

Jim

U, PI, and PSA were merged straight DOH according to their own standing lists. No adjustments were made for LOS or anything else. No Hawkers were moved “down” the list, and no Empire guys were moved up. The lists were merged DOH exactly as presented. Why would such an argument be out of line in a following merger?

Take your blathering 737-400 arguments elsewhere, who cares. And I have beat you up enough about what you did to the Empire guys.

I actually thought I was saying something agreeable to you and others about conditions and restrictions that did not exist on the PI side. All you are looking for is an argument. As usual you pick one thing to launch on and ignore what the poster is saying. Look at the AB 350 thread.

RR

 

[prechilill]

Reed, I think you are wound too tight- let it go. Your crusade is over, you lost. Don't take it out on your fellow pilots, the blame rests squarely with you...

 

[Reed Richards]

Reed, I think you are wound too tight- let it go. Your crusade is over, you lost. Don't take it out on your fellow pilots, the blame rests squarely with you...

How is that whole "We are never paying a penny of dues to USAPA" thing working out for you and your loony girlfriend? How about that Addington DFR?

Are you going to do another Chicken Dance for the camera? Is that what they teach in Comm. School out West?

As far as merging these two groups DOH I agree, it’s over. Merging them at all, in any way, is over also. So in a sense, maybe the crusade is over. You know my thoughts on Scope.

RR

 

[HPearlyretiree]

How is that whole "We are never paying a penny of dues to USAPA" thing working out for you and your loony girlfriend? How about that Addington DFR?

Are you going to do another Chicken Dance for the camera? Is that what they teach in Comm. School out West?

As far as merging these two groups DOH I agree, it’s over. Merging them at all, in any way, is over also. So in a sense, maybe the crusade is over. You know my thoughts on Scope.

RR

How is that whole "we are reneging on our agreement to accept the results of binding arbitration" doing? Your greed has hurt you, and every employee of US. And you deserve to live on LOA93, you all made the choice to stop the process of getting the contract because you all got greedy and you all thought you could roll over the west. The chutzpah of you guys, after 5 years, whining about a situation you created. Amazing.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Kagel did protect the PI 767 captains and the rest of the captains if displaced, but having a C&R saying it and it happening are two different things. That's why I've often said that implementation is as important as the C&R's themselves - how a C&R is implemented can destroy the value of that C&R.

It didn't help that when US added staffing and made reserve and blockholder separate bids, they started by filling the slots with the PI pilots from the bottom instead of the top - reserve first then blockholder. So a lot of PI blockholders ended up stuck in a reserve slot and watched as every blockholder vacancy went to a US pilot. So many bid other equipment where they'd be blockholders and gave up the protection for the QOL they'd enjoyed before. In my case I went from upper half of blockholders to #1 reserve on 1/1/1990 and one of the US pilots that bid in as blockholder above me wasn't a captain when the merger was announced.

So I'd be suspect even if USAPA did offer career seat protection to west pilots because how that was implemented could take it away.

Jim

Actually, I think those PI 767 pilots watched as former-PSA pilots took every blockholder slot. It is clearly the PSA pilots who benefitted most from PI having those widebody aircraft.

But, it was supposed to cover the 767 aircraft on the property and those on order. The orders were restructured taking them out of play. So many Captains and potential 767 Captains that should have been protected were not.

That is the problem with conditions and restrictions...many times there is a work around.

Driver

There is no problem with C&Rs if they are structured and worded properly and have teeth to keep the company shenanigans from unravelling them. When an arbitrator is involved, that makes it difficult as NO ARBITRATOR fully understands the fine points of how airline crews work, bid and progress, and how low management will stoop to undo an arbitrated award. Unless you live it, you can never quite "get it." For example, try explaining duty rigs to a non-crew member. I estimate fully half of the flight attendant cadre in this company could not calculate their own duty rigs if they had to, and they are living it day in and day out.

There is no doubt that any C&R language would need to be as ironclad as humanly possible, with specific penalty for the company to mess with them. It took many contracts for US Air(ways) pilots to get their scope language as tight as it is. But such things can be done with sufficient effort. Maybe the C&Rs that USAPA proposes are not as strong as they could/should be. Well, let's hear from the westies on how they want them structured. I think this is what the Ninth Circuit had in mind when they mentioned that a USAPA negotiated contract may not be harmful the west.

 

[traderjake]

The chutzpah of you guys, after 5 years, whining about a situation you created.

It's not chutzpah, it's pure stupidity.

Four seniority arbitrations in a row prove they're wrong and they still cling to their DOH fantasy.

 

[traderjake]

There is no problem with C&Rs if they are structured and worded properly and have teeth to keep the company shenanigans from unravelling them.

If you really believe that then put C&Rs around the Nicolau Award and see if the West considerers it a DRF.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Words cannot describe this update and I'm almost speechless.

If only that were true. And, yes, it didn't keep you from coming up with words, did it?

But, you should try "speechless" for a year or two. I know you might actually explode, but think of all the falsehoods that would not be disseminated.

 

[Pi brat]

It's not chutzpah, it's pure stupidity.

Four seniority arbitrations in a row prove they're wrong and they still cling to their DOH fantasy.

How did SW/AT follow your theory, or USAPA's for that matter?

 

[Pi brat]

If you really believe that then put C&Rs around the Nicolau Award and see if the West considerers it a DRF.

Do you really think we could keep the Nic but try to fence the west into PHX and they would not still file a DFR? If so, you have not been paying attention to our friends posts. Any change to the Nic will bring DFR II.

 

[Pi brat]

Actually, I think those PI 767 pilots watched as former-PSA pilots took every blockholder slot. It is clearly the PSA pilots who benefitted most from PI having those widebody aircraft.

I guess that is why 924PS has no problem seeing all the westies coming in front of us for the rest of ours careers, it was good enough for him!

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

If only that were true. And, yes, it didn't keep you from coming up with words, did it?

But, you should try "speechless" for a year or two. I know you might actually explode, but think of all the falsehoods that would not be disseminated.

Good one! He won't notice the bleeding for several days, as usual.

 

[cleardirect]

There is no problem with C&Rs if they are structured and worded properly and have teeth to keep the company shenanigans from unravelling them. When an arbitrator is involved, that makes it difficult as NO ARBITRATOR fully understands the fine points of how airline crews work, bid and progress, and how low management will stoop to undo an arbitrated award. Unless you live it, you can never quite "get it." For example, try explaining duty rigs to a non-crew member. I estimate fully half of the flight attendant cadre in this company could not calculate their own duty rigs if they had to, and they are living it day in and day out.

There is no doubt that any C&R language would need to be as ironclad as humanly possible, with specific penalty for the company to mess with them. It took many contracts for US Air(ways) pilots to get their scope language as tight as it is. But such things can be done with sufficient effort. Maybe the C&Rs that USAPA proposes are not as strong as they could/should be. Well, let's hear from the westies on how they want them structured. I think this is what the Ninth Circuit had in mind when they mentioned that a USAPA negotiated contract may not be harmful the west.

You are not paying attention. The west pilots are not going to move one comma from the Nicolau. So hearing from the west pilots on how to structure C&R is not going to happen. There will be no C&R that Nicolau did not put in his award. What are you not understanding about there will be no change, compromise, alteration, C&R, mediation NOTHING to the Nicolau?

As you said yourself C&R can be modified by the company and they have to be tight and watched. Why would the west ever agree to anything that this company could screw the west pilots with? Then have the west pilots rely on usapa to protect us? The same "union" that has been trying to crew us for years would be the same union that would then have to battle the company to keep them from doing exactly what the "union" has been trying to do to us. Sure! usapa will get right on that.

Anything that changes the Nicolau is harm to the west. I have not heard a single thing from the east on how you would improve the Nicolau for the west. The only thing we have ever heard is how you would take from the west to improve the east.

Well at least you are admitting that it takes several years in order to get your contract where it needs to be. AWA is working off our SECOND contract. The pay was always low but the rest of the contract is not bad. As you are learning this management does not like to pay. So all of you can stop with the "you had the worst contract in the industry" crap. We were getting there until you east pilots decided you selfishness was more important than getting improving contracts.

One more time in case you are slow or missed it.


There will be no modification or change or C&R's or anything to the Nicolau award from the west.


So stop asking , begging or hoping that there is any chance. Is that clear enough even for you?

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Do you really think we could keep the Nic but try to fence the west into PHX and they would not still file a DFR? If so, you have not been paying attention to our friends posts. Any change to the Nic will bring DFR II.

I am not certain I understand why these admittedly awareness-deficient and fetal positioned pilots have not yet come to grips with the certainty that there will be at least one DFR lawsuit filed regardless, Nicholau's gift to USAirways and the lawyers that will be used.

I think the pilot group, accepting that, would then move the discussion on (not away from) to things that will actually matter, like the constant deprecation of our contract by management and how to counter that. Those "let my daddy vote" occupiers of pilot seats waste far too much energy over speculation (what if the company shuts down, what if I get a hangnail). I consider them to be trolls, concern or otherwise, and try not to feed them.

Though, sometimes like you and ny have done, the putdowns are awesome.<G>