US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Iclubbabyseals]

The west pilots are not going to move one comma from the Nicolau. So hearing from the west pilots on how to structure C&R is not going to happen.

You truly have no idea of the difference between those issues, do you? But, hey, go for it.

Your posts have provided much fodder for discrediting your own position. Keep it up.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I actually thought I was saying something agreeable to you and others about conditions and restrictions that did not exist on the PI side.

You keep saying that and it's not true. There were plenty of C&R's designed to protect the PI side. The US MC and company just worked together to water many of them down to the point of being useless. I honestly don't know where you come up with this "no C&R's" nonsense unless it's from only seeing the results and not understanding how the results happened. I suppose once Kaegel awarded DOH you got your's and didn't worry about details like the C&R's he wrote into the agreement.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Any update on a trial date for NAUGHLER?

Yes. That would be about NEVER! Have you not figured out that is a dead case?

The magistrate not even a judge has had summary judgement paper since June 2010. NOTHING has been decided. Until that is ruled on there is no trial. How is it you think there will be a trial if there are waiting for summary judgement? If they had any confidence they were going to win there would not be a trial because they would win at summary judgement.

So if anyone is telling you there is going to be a trial they know they will lose the summary judgement. That means they lost as a matter of LAW. They they would have to hope they could convince a jury that their tail of tears is worth something. Not on the law but on emotion.

Face it the Naugler case is dead. Dead and gone.

 

[cactusboy53]

I was there. DOH was indeed considered the "most fair." History supports that, despite the hiccup in merging the EAL Shuttle. But there is not enough bandwidth worth my time or yours to delve into that small (Nic again) aberration. I ask any on this forum from the East to tell me they would have stood front and center and thrown our furloughed under the bus, after all that was given, to ease the process. I was not willing. I dare a single pilot by name to email me that he or she was, knowing I will not keep said name a secret. I dare you.

Fact is the West MEC (and at least initially to their credit) knew the worst they could ever do was DOH, and were damn the torpedoes ahead to get to arbitration. Here we are, and at this time so far removed from what got us here, I question (other than stroking all our egos, including mine) what value that introspection has. Who saved who, who had the best position in the arbitration arguments...simply does not matter now.

DOH with good conditions, restrictions, and fences could still work. U/PSA went straight DOH without a whimper. In the U/PI merger one side held out for straight DOH and won. The other side was so hell bent on slotting they never bothered to get good conditions and restrictions (as Jim has pointed out) and only a few wide body C/Os were protected. I was a rusthead, and could not believe C/O upgrades were not protected on the PI side. Still don't get that one..and to be honest they were deserved. But the backstop was DOH, and it took a couple of decades for that to work out. This fiasco will be resolved in 4 or 5 more years absent any agreement, already adding to the 5 years wasted.

Been around the pattern too many times to buy the story all mergers are done. I will hold out for DOH come hell or high water. It is the only possible protection I have in the next merger

For the hundredth time...absent a breakthrough, the next M&A will involve an unmerged U/AWA. I would rather go into that without a guy or gal 11 years my junior starting out ahead of me, and my own Scope.

RR

RR;
After reading this (and other following posts by you), it is very clear that you are deeply frustrated. You now see the corner that USAPA / SSM&P have truly painted you into.

Let's keep this simple: USAPA has lead the former US Air pilots into a Dead End. The only way to complete this matter (aside from changing the constitution & USAPA leadership) is through the now proceeding court actions / reactions.

First, the District Courts will rule on the company's request on what they may/may not do & if there will be legal repercussions on those actions. Judge Silver has already given a brief glimpse into how she feels about doing the company's work for them. Second, USAPA & the company (without any AWA pilots involved) will try to get a contract TA. Make no mistake: The company needs to complete this merger, otherwise they would not have filed in court last year.

Go ahead and see if you can get your contract out with your little conditions and restrictions. See if you can get the company to set foot out on that plank. BTW, based on your post above I ASSUME that you are OK in re-organizing your East list so that the EMPIRE pilots redeem the DOH GOLD STANDARD?

LURKERS: There are a dozen vocal "easties" that SWEAR that a new contract (The Kirby Proposal for instance) with improvements and current DAL wages would NEVER PASS! They SWEAR that there is NO AMOUNT OF MONEY to buy their votes! That is the beauty of a vote: IT IS A SECRET BALLOT. Are you tired of the "junior angry FO's" steering this rudderless ship? Are you ready for a SUBSTANTIAL RAISE & TIME OFF?? It is time to stand up and participate. Your other choice is to languish on LOA 93 wages for the rest of your career.

The West pilot group has been forced into a position to defend a legal final & binding seniority integration. We stand FIRMLY on legal, moral & ethical grounds. We are solid & funded, and we will NOT capitulate. Remember: The courts have NEVER overturned a final & binding arbitration.......EVER (even Randy & Mike know this!).

Have a great day.

 

[Pi brat]

You are not paying attention. The west pilots are not going to move one comma from the Nicolau.

There ya go Jake, I don't think anyone could make it any clearer.

Now, like seals says, why don't we all accept each other's positions, let the high paid lawyers sort that out, and stop fighting each other on EVERYTHING else?

 

[cleardirect]

The west pilots are not going to move one comma from the Nicolau. So hearing from the west pilots on how to structure C&R is not going to happen.

You truly have no idea of the difference between those issues, do you? But, hey, go for it.

Your posts have provided much fodder for discrediting your own position. Keep it up.

WHAT??????


The difference between what issues.

Not changing the Nicolau and adding C&R are the same issue.

There is nothing to discredit.


There will be NO modification, changing, dealing, bargaining, C&R's, or anything from the west to the Nicolau.

Clear enough?

 

[Injunction junction]

I was there. DOH was indeed considered the "most fair." History supports that, despite the hiccup in merging the EAL Shuttle. But there is not enough bandwidth worth my time or yours to delve into that small (Nic again) aberration. I ask any on this forum from the East to tell me they would have stood front and center and thrown our furloughed under the bus, after all that was given, to ease the process. I was not willing. I dare a single pilot by name to email me that he or she was, knowing I will not keep said name a secret. I dare you.

Fact is the West MEC (and at least initially to their credit) knew the worst they could ever do was DOH, and were damn the torpedoes ahead to get to arbitration. Here we are, and at this time so far removed from what got us here, I question (other than stroking all our egos, including mine) what value that introspection has. Who saved who, who had the best position in the arbitration arguments...simply does not matter now.

DOH with good conditions, restrictions, and fences could still work. U/PSA went straight DOH without a whimper. In the U/PI merger one side held out for straight DOH and won. The other side was so hell bent on slotting they never bothered to get good conditions and restrictions (as Jim has pointed out) and only a few wide body C/Os were protected. I was a rusthead, and could not believe C/O upgrades were not protected on the PI side. Still don't get that one..and to be honest they were deserved. But the backstop was DOH, and it took a couple of decades for that to work out. This fiasco will be resolved in 4 or 5 more years absent any agreement, already adding to the 5 years wasted.

Been around the pattern too many times to buy the story all mergers are done. I will hold out for DOH come hell or high water. It is the only possible protection I have in the next merger

For the hundredth time...absent a breakthrough, the next M&A will involve an unmerged U/AWA. I would rather go into that without a guy or gal 11 years my junior starting out ahead of me, and my own Scope.

RR

Reed you are so wrong on this issue its not even funny anymore. WTH do you get your information???? The TRUTH of the situation is that west mec tried extremely hard to get the east to move off DOH as it was completely unfair. There were NO, ZERO, talks of any conditions and restrictions just plain straight DOH. The c&r came after usapa took over and that is the truth.

The east was in complete control of the direction and felt they could dictate the terms of everything. It was the east that wanted to rush full speed into arbitration not the west. It was the east that PHL capt rep Eric Rowe that stated "we have done this many times so we know how it works, we go to arbitration and let the arbitrator decide and what ever he decides we will have to live with". That was back in 06 now its 11 almost 12 and you yet again have been fed false information that you gobbled up as the God's honest truth.

I could almost respect that you wanted to fight for your f/o's rights so that they to could someday realize their dreams in this career of making captain. I could right up until the point where you and your fellow captains decided it was more honorable to go back on your agreements to the disadvantage of this entire airline. In other words the needs of the few in your minds out weigh the needs of the many as we all suffer as a result of your decisions. If just a handful of you ever sought out the REAL TRUTH maybe we would not be in this mess today. The fact is that you and many many others in your seat and los have allowed this to happen. You let the AFO's over there run the show and here just 46 days away from 2012, 5 yrs later you and they have nothing to show for it.

I dont expect you take my word for it but as a professional aviator I do expect you to do the minimum research and use all the tools at your disposal to get to that truth. The west pilots didnt start this war.

Insult away now.

Injunction

 

[USA320Pilot]

Click here to view an extreme example of an airline negotiating directly with its employees to bypass the union. Could US Airways use this same tactic? Separately, I heard a rumor, I emphasis it's a rumor, from an informed USAPA source that the NMB has let US Airways and the NAC know they're close to "parking" negotiations, which was recently done at AMR for American's pilots and flight attendants. This would prevent self help, a strike, or a lock out because there would be no NMB release from negotiations. In US Airways' pilots case the PHX-based pilots would continue to operate under C2004 and pilots based east of the Mississippi River would have LOA 93 indefinitely.

Click here to read one of the storys of the NMB parking APFA's negotiations. Could that be why the NAC recently submitted a comprehensive proposal to management?

In addition, click here to read AMR's Comprehensive proposal provided to APA's negotiating team (who uses ALPA E&FA's ISP subsidiary as their professional negotiators).

 

[cleardirect]

DOH with good conditions, restrictions, and fences could still work. U/PSA went straight DOH without a whimper. In the U/PI merger one side held out for straight DOH and won. The other side was so hell bent on slotting they never bothered to get good conditions and restrictions (as Jim has pointed out) and only a few wide body C/Os were protected. I was a rusthead, and could not believe C/O upgrades were not protected on the PI side. Still don't get that one..and to be honest they were deserved. But the backstop was DOH, and it took a couple of decades for that to work out. This fiasco will be resolved in 4 or 5 more years absent any agreement, already adding to the 5 years wasted.

Been around the pattern too many times to buy the story all mergers are done. I will hold out for DOH come hell or high water. It is the only possible protection I have in the next merger

For the hundredth time...absent a breakthrough, the next M&A will involve an unmerged U/AWA. I would rather go into that without a guy or gal 11 years my junior starting out ahead of me, and my own Scope.

RR

So DOH is your protection in the next merger. Where is the protection for the west in the next merger using DOH???????

Those little C&R's are worthless. So the west ends up with straight DOH and screwed. But hey as long as you are protected that is all that matters right. As long as usapa protects east pilots and screws west pilots they are doing their job right? To bad the NMB and RLA have something to say about that.

In case you missed it.

The west will not modify, change, amend, mediate, compromise or add C&R's to the Nicolau.

 

[Injunction junction]

There ya go Jake, I don't think anyone could make it any clearer.

Now, like seals says, why don't we all accept each other's positions, let the high paid lawyers sort that out, and stop fighting each other on EVERYTHING else?

Pi because we have heard this from the east before "let the arbitrator decide". Now you say " let the high paid lawyers sort that out, and stop fighting each other on EVERYTHING else". Next when that doesn't go the east way you'll be back here saying "let the court of appeals handle it". This vicious cycle is to the detriment of this entire group, dont you see that yet?

Injunction

 

[prechilill]

Pi because we have heard this from the east before "let the arbitrator decide". Now you say " let the high paid lawyers sort that out, and stop fighting each other on EVERYTHING else". Next when that doesn't go the east way you'll be back here saying "let the court of appeals handle it". This vicious cycle is to the detriment of this entire group, dont you see that yet?

Injunction

So true!

 

[Pi brat]

Pi because we have heard this from the east before "let the arbitrator decide". Now you say " let the high paid lawyers sort that out, and stop fighting each other on EVERYTHING else". Next when that doesn't go the east way you'll be back here saying "let the court of appeals handle it". This vicious cycle is to the detriment of this entire group, dont you see that yet?

Injunction

Said the side that took their loser case all the way to the Supreme Court. Pot, meet kettle. BOTH sides are fighting this until the final step and when I say let they courts decide, I'm assuming it will be the SCOTUS that finally settles it.

 

[Pi brat]

So true!

Said pot #2.

 

[Pi brat]

Click here to view an extreme example of an airline negotiating directly with its employees to bypass the union. Could US Airways use this same tactic? Separately, I heard a rumor, I emphasis it's a rumor, from an informed USAPA source that the NMB has let US Airways and the NAC know they're close to "parking" negotiations, which was recently done at AMR for American's pilots and flight attendants. This would prevent self help, a strike, or a lock out because there would be no NMB release from negotiations. In US Airways' pilots case the PHX-based pilots would continue to operate under C2004 and pilots based east of the Mississippi River would have LOA 93 indefinitely.

Click here to read one of the storys of the NMB parking APFA's negotiations. Could that be why the NAC recently submitted a comprehensive proposal to management?

In addition, click here to read AMR's Comprehensive proposal provided to APA's negotiating team (who uses ALPA E&FA's ISP subsidiary as their professional negotiators).

I hate to break this to you, but with your history and all the unbiased "facts" that you post that are really questions, most of us put everything you post in the rumor or just flat made up category.

 

[Pi brat]

The TRUTH of the situation is that west mec tried extremely hard to get the east to move off DOH as it was completely unfair.

I'm sure that is the truth. I've heard from a very trusted source that the east MC tried to get the west to come off not a single furloughed pilot ahead of Dave, which would have allowed some innovation ideas, but they wouldn't. Is that true?