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It had NOTHING to do with disadvantaging the West pilots. It had nothing to do with fairness. It had everything to do with giving in to a very vocal minority of the pilot group that demanded it and also avoiding the perception of weakness. There was NEVER some deep dark motive to intentionally hurt the West. It was more about what we "deserved" giving what we had been through. It didn't get personal until later.

That is my understanding from those that were there.

Driver B)
And I accept your account of it. Again, I thank you for your candor. It is the very vocal minority that the silent majority unfortunately allowed to run the show and lead the collective group to where we are today. That is a shame. From where we sit on the west it appears that it is still the vocal minority pulling the strings. You see it here all the time, with the threats and attacks and peer pressure against anyone from the east who speaks out against the party line.

I'm sure you all felt, rightfully so, that after all you had been through you deserved something from your company. And it's the company you should get it from. Like pay parity plus a nice raise, better work rules, better retirement, etc. We on the west got caught in the unreasonable expectations of the vocal minority you refer to, and if they are successful we will pay the price. That's the problem with things like "fairness" and deciding what one "deserves." It's too subjective, which is why the legal system provides arbitration as a process to allow a third party to broker a deal. Even if it is not your intention or motive to hurt the west, it will still be the end result. Which is why we can never let DOH happen.

I think you would find that many on the west simply do not trust anyone on the east to "compromise" given the benefit of hindsight. At this point we feel the legal wind is at our back and following through on Nic and nothing else is our best path to success. As Jim points out, there are too many loopholes with C&R's.
 

Make no mistake: The company needs to complete this merger, otherwise they would not have filed in court last year.

Go ahead and see if you can get your contract out with your little conditions and restrictions. See if you can get the company to set foot out on that plank. BTW, based on your post above I ASSUME that you are OK in re-organizing your East list so that the EMPIRE pilots redeem the DOH GOLD STANDARD?

LURKERS: There are a dozen vocal "easties" that SWEAR that a new contract (The Kirby Proposal for instance) with improvements and current DAL wages would NEVER PASS! They SWEAR that there is NO AMOUNT OF MONEY to buy their votes! That is the beauty of a vote: IT IS A SECRET BALLOT. Are you tired of the "junior angry FO's" steering this rudderless ship? Are you ready for a SUBSTANTIAL RAISE & TIME OFF?? It is time to stand up and participate. Your other choice is to languish on LOA 93 wages for the rest of your career.




You and I will never know exactly what is happening in the head shed, but I don't believe they need, or want to have this done, at this time. If they did, they could finish it, then tell USAPA to sue them. Remember the Hemmingway letter? No, I think the whole DJ is just a nice way to keep their hands clean and let this drag out while there is no immediate merger available. Think of the money this fight has saved them, and will save them in the future with our fractured group.

You are right about the secret ballot, the problem is how do we get there? Would you like to see the NAC put out a company scripted proposal for us to vote on just to see where we really are? Maybe the NAC should take our '98 contract, put in the average of all major US airlines pay rates, stick the Nic in section 22 and stick in front of the company and say take it or leave it and we will put it our for a vote. I feel confident that the company would say no.

I don't understand how you guys cannot see how your actions outside of the court hurt our ability to get a good contract. I bet old Al reads this boards and laughs like hell, and probably loves Injunciton junctions screen name.
 
Click here to view an extreme example of an airline negotiating directly with its employees to bypass the union. Could US Airways use this same tactic? Separately, I heard a rumor, I emphasis it's a rumor, from an informed USAPA source that the NMB has let US Airways and the NAC know they're close to "parking" negotiations, which was recently done at AMR for American's pilots and flight attendants.

Even a blind squirrel finds that nut now and then. I believe the man is correct.

For the record, my predictions:

Loss on LOA 93
Parked by Christmas
Loss in NY
Injunction is slightly modified, but stands
More fun and games in PHX but years to go on any finality
Eventual win on 3% raises for the East
I slowly move up the East list, widebody C/O in 3 or 4 years
Merger and Aquisition might clean up the legal mess, but will never bring Nic to this property.
Life moves on

RR
 
I was there. DOH was indeed considered the "most fair."

Looks like A320 Driver was there too and disagrees with your assessment.



History supports that, despite the hiccup in merging the EAL Shuttle.

How self centered of you. So Shuttle was merely a "hiccup" but putting furloughed pilots at the bottom where they came from is a travesty, huh? Talk about situational ethics. I'm not surprised.



I ask any on this forum from the East to tell me they would have stood front and center and thrown our furloughed under the bus, after all that was given, to ease the process. I was not willing. I dare a single pilot by name to email me that he or she was, knowing I will not keep said name a secret. I dare you.

More tough talk from an angry person. You are the perfect example of the vocal minority that has kept everyone hostage in your careers. More peer pressure and scare tactics to get others to conform to your view of the world. This is why your credibility is suspect.

DOH with good conditions, restrictions, and fences could still work.

History proves you wrong, as Jim already pointed out. I think we'll take the word of someone who was there front and center over you.
There is no trust of the east. So your pathetic C&R's hold no value, especially coming from people like you who are motivated to avoid any and all agreements and commitments if it benefits you. We've seen your C&R's. They are limp to say the least. Where are the iron clad, water tight C&R's that we should accept?

I will hold out for DOH come hell or high water. It is the only possible protection I have in the next merger

Again you prove my point. So you are hanging your hat on some hypothetical "next merger" to resurrect your career, and you want to position yourself in an advantageous spot to screw the next group at my expense. Feel free to hold out come hell or high water. Just be advised that the flood is right around the corner, followed closely by the blazing fires of hell. You will not get your DOH. Not then. Not now. Not ever. This SLI is done and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
 
Words cannot describe this update and I'm almost speechless. Talk about corruption and an unprofessional organization. Pick a topic of failure and embarrassment: District Court of North Carolina Order against USAPA, Legal Firms Representing USAPA, Legal -- October, LOA 93, Negotiations, Spending -- October Meeting, Spending -- November, & USAPA Bulletin.

I particularly love this one: "The questionable spin presented by the President, that people are attempting to "overthrow officers" and have "secret phone calls" with legal counsel, demonstrates a large part of the problem. Legal counsel represents USAPA, not the President. Because the President usually operates in a secret mode."

How should somebody describe USAPA's President who the DCA Reps say "usually operates in a secret mode?" What ever happened to the new and improved democratic and transparent union?

Usapa is a total embarassment to all of us but, hey, at least we get to pay for it.....
 
I ask any on this forum from the East to tell me they would have stood front and center and thrown our furloughed under the bus, after all that was given, to ease the process. I was not willing. I dare a single pilot by name to email me that he or she was, knowing I will not keep said name a secret. I dare you.

Strong words from behind a keyboard. Thanks for proving my point. Nothing but a playground bully.

We don't need to email you. You control nothing anymore. The tyranny of you and your type is coming to an end. All you need to know is that many of us don't agree with your position, and the silent majority are starting to clear their throats. This war you started is finally in it's final days and will end in a contract that benefits the most pilots on this property. Those with unrealistic ideas of entitlement will just have to deal with it.
 
Wye River was pretty much the first time the west stood up, looked the bully in the eye and told him to f%&$ himself. Soon the bully will go home with a bloody nose crying to mommy that it was all someone else's fault.

This is the best post I've seen here in months!

BRAVO!
 
I'm sure that is the truth. I've heard from a very trusted source that the east MC tried to get the west to come off not a single furloughed pilot ahead of Dave, which would have allowed some innovation ideas, but they wouldn't. Is that true?

Yes to a point. When the original papers were going back and forth one of the major issues from the very beginning was that the east mec did not want to certify their list. Now this was the start of the dishonesty as they sent over what they said was a current list but some investigation by the merger committee had uncovered that it was in fact a list several years old. Why is this important you ask? Two reasons, first it by not wanting certifying a current list they sought to steal slots. The list that old had retired pilots, pilots that had gone to other carriers and even dead pilots. They sought to capture slots they were not entitled too. Second it was the first in a series of dishonest acts by the east mec. Keep in mind now that we were new at this merger stuff and thought we were dealing with people of high moral standards.

The issues of the east furloughed pilots came up and using the promises by both Lakefield and Parker in the very beginning that no furloughed pilot would EVER displace or be placed ahead of an active pilot we took the position of Mr. Odel being the very bottom pilot would remain at the bottom of active pilots before all furloughs. Now before you get all upset and start screaming, there is more to this. There were no plans by the company at that time to hire AND no pilots were planned to be recalled. The west even at that time had interviewed pilots just one month prior to the merger announcement and had pilots in class as well as in a pool. The time came when the company did need more pilots and a decision was made that the furloughed pilots should be given the opportunity to come back. Now keep in mind Pi that we in the west had no obligations to these furloughed pilots what so ever yet we agreed with this concept and again thinking we were dealing with honorable people here basically flushed our pool and took on east pilots out west. This move came back to haunt us in the end as the very things that Parker and lakefield promised would never happen did in fact happen. Furloughed pilots were placed ahead of active pilots. To this very day we still have this situation. Now I could go on and on about this but I am certain a person of your intelligence gets the picture.

Now like I said before you dont have to take my word for it but at the very least investigate for yourself. It doesnt take much in this situation to point out who is lying to you and who is telling you the truth. The west still has pilots who were active before this merger on furlough while every east pilot has been recalled and new hires are here ala third list'ers!!!

Injunction
 
How is that whole "we are reneging on our agreement to accept the results of binding arbitration" doing? Your greed has hurt you, and every employee of US. And you deserve to live on LOA93, you all made the choice to stop the process of getting the contract because you all got greedy and you all thought you could roll over the west. The chutzpah of you guys, after 5 years, whining about a situation you created. Amazing.
Greed cuts both ways. Remember the individual groups vote break down over ALPA's ouster? By the way LOA 93 helps USAirways... those that abide by it, not as much. Try a little introspection, it might get you out of the "dogmasphere".
 
Yes to a point. When the original papers were going back and forth one of the major issues from the very beginning was that the east mec did not want to certify their list. Now this was the start of the dishonesty as they sent over what they said was a current list but some investigation by the merger committee had uncovered that it was in fact a list several years old. Why is this important you ask? Two reasons, first it by not wanting certifying a current list they sought to steal slots. The list that old had retired pilots, pilots that had gone to other carriers and even dead pilots. They sought to capture slots they were not entitled too. Second it was the first in a series of dishonest acts by the east mec. Keep in mind now that we were new at this merger stuff and thought we were dealing with people of high moral standards.

Now like I said before you dont have to take my word for it but at the very least investigate for yourself. It doesnt take much in this situation to point out who is lying to you and who is telling you the truth. The west still has pilots who were active before this merger on furlough while every east pilot has been recalled and new hires are here ala third list'ers!!!

Injunction

The very act of "certifying" a list speaks for itself. That process takes place before each merger. But how would an airline that had never merged know that? It is not a midnight raid on the records, it is a labor intensive and complete process, not a snapshot on the day of your choosing. There were, in fact STILL are serious questions remaining at the bottom of our list. Thanks again ALPA.

Since you seem be the broadcaster of all this fantasy, why don't you tell us about when your JNC took confidential materials into the Merger process.

Remember that?...since you seem to be in the know. Maybe you can honestly quote Rowe this time in the context of time and exact place.

RR
 
Strong words from behind a keyboard. Thanks for proving my point. Nothing but a playground bully.

We don't need to email you. You control nothing anymore. The tyranny of you and your type is coming to an end. All you need to know is that many of us don't agree with your position, and the silent majority are starting to clear their throats. This war you started is finally in it's final days and will end in a contract that benefits the most pilots on this property. Those with unrealistic ideas of entitlement will just have to deal with it.

So what was your stance on the issue? Under the bus...or not? The bully is waiting for your reply.

RR
 
I know, I know it's all ALPA's fault, But, let's look at some facts.

- USAPA has been sued in two different federal district courts by two different plaintiffs – the West pilots and now the company. Both plaintiffs sued to enjoin (stop) USAPA from consciously harming the respective interests of the plaintiffs. In both suits, the plaintiffs prevailed against USAPA.

- Recall that Lee Seham boasted early in our suit that “DFRs are notoriously difficult to win.” Judge Conrad writes, “[p]reliminary injunctions are an extraordinary remedy whose primary function is to protect the status quo and to prevent irreparable harm during the pendency of a lawsuit”.

- Twice now USAPA has lost on claims which should have been easy for a union to prevail on had they followed the law. It is astounding that a union could face two different claims and lose on both, all within three and a half years of its creation.

- In addition to losing a DFR and an injunction, in its short lifetime, USAPA has also sued its own members under a civil RICO theory, lost, appealed and lost again on the appeal. In addition, USAPA has allowed grievances to become backlogged to levels unheard of under ALPA; spent over three years in Section 6 negotiations with virtually no progress; virtually eliminated West representation on committees; burned through millions of dollars of pilots’ dues money in other frivolous investigations; and now faces the prospect of dozens of pilots being terminated as a result of USAPA’s illegal job action. USAPA rabidly uses its Section 29 powers against its membership, unlike anything seen before under East or West ALPA.

The common denominator in all of USAPA’s experiences since its inception is the habit of doing the wrong thing, even when the right thing to do is glaringly obvious. The mentality appears to be, “[w]e will get what we want, right or wrong, no matter what it takes!”

I particularly found yesterday's comment by the DCA Reps astounding. The DCA Reps said, "The questionable spin presented by the President, that people are attempting to “overthrow officers” and have “secret phone calls” with legal counsel, demonstrates a large part of the problem. Legal counsel represents USAPA, not the President. Because the President usually operates in a secret mode.”

I know describing a person's management style as the Führer is wrong, even though Dictionary.com describes this word as a "leader", but what word would you use to describe a union's president who BPR Reps said, "usually operates in a secret mode"?

What ever happened to the new and improved democratic and transparent union?"

Make no mistake about it USAPA's reckless actions have placed every pilot at risk.

There is the Preliminary Injunction, a USAPA Communications Committee individual told me the union has been told that the NMB has indicated it could park our new contract negotiations, BPR Reps indicate USAPA's president “usually operates in a secret mode," we have brand new attorneys about to present USAPA's defense in the DJ lawsuit, and the union cannot pay its bills because it's budget has about 18 percent or $1.8 billion deficit.

At least some east pilots believe at least we don't have the Nic with some of our pilots are counting the days until they get an attrition-based 35% pay increase while thousands of other US Airways pilots get zero and are placed at risk by their own union.

I know, I know...this is all ALPA's fault...
 
Reed you are so wrong on this issue its not even funny anymore.
Injunction
I won't copy the whole thing, but that was an excellent post. The institutional memory of this place is fading over time as lies petrify into what is accepted as truth. Many of us have clear memories of the course of events and many in USAPA are threatened by challenges to their fear mongering.
 
and the union cannot pay its bills because it's budget has about 18 percent or $1.8 billion deficit.

USAPA has a $10 billion budget?!! I knew buying those Tauruses was a bad idea. Good thing they let the BPR vote on cell-phone providers so they could balance that budget.
 
The very act of "certifying" a list speaks for itself. That process takes place before each merger. But how would an airline that had never merged know that? It is not a midnight raid on the records, it is a labor intensive and complete process, not a snapshot on the day of your choosing. There were, in fact STILL are serious questions remaining at the bottom of our list. Thanks again ALPA.

Since you seem be the broadcaster of all this fantasy, why don't you tell us about when your JNC took confidential materials into the Merger process.

Remember that?...since you seem to be in the know. Maybe you can honestly quote Rowe this time in the context of time and exact place.

RR

The act of certifying seniority lists is defined in the alpa merger policy. It doesn't really matter that an airline had never merged before, or whether one had merged five times. Each list presented for merge should be certified as to time of the current merger.

It is truth, not fantasy, that the east was unwilling to do so and it was the west MC's first clear indication of what scumbags they were dealing with.

If what you say is true regarding serious problems at the bottom of your list perhaps you stumbled upon the reason the east MC didn't want to certify their entire list.

When did the west JNC bring confidential material into the merger process? Please explain THAT fantasy.
 
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