US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Code Name V]

Pssssst! Here's your enlightenment: It's not YOUR attrition! Just like my 6.5 year upgrade that has yet to happen (11 years & counting). That ship sailed in September 2005, and then again finally in May of 2007.

I don't know if you have been paying attention, but our little union has got some SERIOUS PROBLEMS facing them. Cleary has spent USAPA into a RED HOLE (I would have called it BLACK, but we are in big financial trouble). The legal firm that assured a slam dunk w/ DOH is waltzing away with 10,000,000+ in billable hours. The new legal team is frantically trying to undo the damages caused.

What has happened is over 4 years of delay in wages, time off and contract improvements that will NEVER be regained. USAPA & its supporters have done nothing but set in stone what pariahs you are in the industry.

The courts will finish this up for the simple reason that you can not be trusted, nor held to your word. See you in the funny papers!

If you haven't figured it out yet, it's what 'we' brought to the table. You brought yours as well. If you boys could have understood that, there might have been some room to negotiate. Now there's non and why it will be separate ops forever. This is where the west wants to steal jobs from the East; not the other way around as noone on the East gives a rats ass about taking your positions and capitalizing on what you brought to the table.

Nothing new here. Same old crap thats been thrown back and forth for years and will continue to do so.

Oh, by the way; which one of your trusted advisors are giving you direction now? Is it the same one that advised you on walking out on Wye River and telling us to stick it way back then? Is so...what do they say about the same issue expecting different results?

V

 

[Code Name V]

Would you care to identify your self to me? I bet not...that would take courage. Hey, but what is it like to be wrong? Why don't you post facts versus rambling with meaningless comments.

You must be kidding. We have met many times over the years and I even supported you once when I thought you were on the level and not just a nut case with an ego complex. I suppose however that if I was the only one, they would be meaningless comments. That however is not the case as the entire east airline knows of you and your history. The damage you have single handedly done to this group is enormous. You best hope that USAPA works as hard next time to get your job back.

V

 

[eastcoast]

I'm glad you have such little regard for those who sit to the right of you and for the furloughs who made the ultimate sacrfice..

I have more regard for you and the other f/o's than you have for me and the other captains. You have held us all hostage with your entitled expectations. It was one thing to stand up for you at the start of this, but it's gotten out of control and we've let you lead us into a corner with no exit. This place wouldn't be here if it wasn't for us. Those who came before you. What makes the sacrifices I made over the years before you showed up so insignificant and yours the "ultimate" sacrifice?

It's time for us to take the airplane back. "I HAVE THE CONTROLS!" Get used to it.

How would you of done in Nov of 2002 going from making 125,000 to the streets? The NIC is a travesty, sorry way wrong.

Another false pretense. You guys are experts at that. Yes, being furloughed is a travesty after so many years. No argument there. But the arbitrated award did not do that to anyone. One has nothing to do with the other. The only "fact" is that DOH puts furloughed pilots ahead of non-furloughed pilots. And the arbitrated award pretty much keeps our attrition intact.

I'm glad there are supporters of the junior on the list like NYC bus driver, Black Swan, US 320 Driver, PI Brat, Bob Moore and others! so people like you don't get your way and throw people under the bus.

Don't be so sure, just because a few of the vocal minority here say so. Think about it... How many captains are going to take the chance that some self centered, egotistical, self entitled person will undermine their cockpits and subject the captains to certificate action because they tell them their REAL opinion about what has gone on long enough? Most of us have been around enough to know when to hold our tongue for the sake of safety and cockpit relations. You have already proven that you will take from others to advance your own position. ie: you can't be trusted to do what's right. You think your "sacrifice" justifies your actions. So it's easy enough to come to the conclusion that you wouldn't mind if a few captains leave early due to certificate action by the FAA.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but many guys you fly with are telling you what you want to hear. Until there is a vote, there's no reason to subject ourselves to your bullying, peer pressure tactics. You'll never know until the vote is counted. How many examples has there been in our past of things being voted in, but no one ever flies with anyone who voted for it. You do the math.

I'll but you get a lot of support in your cockpits unless you dummy up.

V

I could say the same to you. It's amazing that you guys never consider that people might be telling you what you want to hear considering your behavior when you don't get what you want.

 

[Pi brat]

USA320. You wrote:

"Did he lie when he wrote his ALPA PIT LEC letter to the pilots stating he recommended a "no" vote for LOA 93 because there were no snap backs or did he lie to Board of Arbitration during the LOA 93 arbitration?"

That or indicates that you are saying he lied one place or another. Are you sure you don't want to change that post?

 

[crazystnic]

I have more regard for you and the other f/o's than you have for me and the other captains. You have held us all hostage with your entitled expectations. It was one thing to stand up for you at the start of this, but it's gotten out of control and we've let you lead us into a corner with no exit. This place wouldn't be here if it wasn't for us. Those who came before you. What makes the sacrifices I made over the years before you showed up so insignificant and yours the "ultimate" sacrifice?

It's time for us to take the airplane back. "I HAVE THE CONTROLS!" Get used to it.



Another false pretense. You guys are experts at that. Yes, being furloughed is a travesty after so many years. No argument there. But the arbitrated award did not do that to anyone. One has nothing to do with the other. The only "fact" is that DOH puts furloughed pilots ahead of non-furloughed pilots. And the arbitrated award pretty much keeps our attrition intact.



Don't be so sure, just because a few of the vocal minority here say so. Think about it... How many captains are going to take the chance that some self centered, egotistical, self entitled person will undermine their cockpits and subject the captains to certificate action because they tell them their REAL opinion about what has gone on long enough? Most of us have been around enough to know when to hold our tongue for the sake of safety and cockpit relations. You have already proven that you will take from others to advance your own position. ie: you can't be trusted to do what's right. You think your "sacrifice" justifies your actions. So it's easy enough to come to the conclusion that you wouldn't mind if a few captains leave early due to certificate action by the FAA.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but many guys you fly with are telling you what you want to hear. Until there is a vote, there's no reason to subject ourselves to your bullying, peer pressure tactics. You'll never know until the vote is counted. How many examples has there been in our past of things being voted in, but no one ever flies with anyone who voted for it. You do the math.



I could say the same to you. It's amazing that you guys never consider that people might be telling you what you want to hear considering your behavior when you don't get what you want.

You didn't answer the question of how long you have been a captain!

remember the difference between a capt and an FO here is not very long ... Captains hired in 1984, 1985 and FO's sitting FO hired in 1987 1988....

but you did sure tell us how you would throw us under the bus...

Remember we have been getting 85,000 for a number of years while you have been getting 40,000 more than that, and it's you that need a raise...

yup, got it.

 

[Pi brat]

The only "fact" is that DOH puts furloughed pilots ahead of non-furloughed pilots. And the arbitrated award pretty much keeps our attrition intact.

"Pretty much"? What does that mean. Would being #450 at retirement vs. #5 be "pretty much"?

Actually DOH does not put furloughed pilots ahead of non-furloughed pilots. It would put formerly furloughed pilots ahead of formerly working pilots. The nic would actually put currently furloughed pilots ahead of currently working pilots.

What are you plans for "My Aircraft" captain?

 

[Injunction junction]

If you haven't figured it out yet, it's what 'we' brought to the table. You brought yours as well. If you boys could have understood that, there might have been some room to negotiate. Now there's non and why it will be separate ops forever. This is where the west wants to steal jobs from the East; not the other way around as noone on the East gives a rats ass about taking your positions and capitalizing on what you brought to the table.

Nothing new here. Same old crap thats been thrown back and forth for years and will continue to do so.

Oh, by the way; which one of your trusted advisors are giving you direction now? Is it the same one that advised you on walking out on Wye River and telling us to stick it way back then? Is so...what do they say about the same issue expecting different results?

V

Take a really good look at this person ladies and gentleman because here is yet another in a long line of those who take information that he was fed be it false or otherwise as gospel. Afraid to research on his own because doing so just might uncover those lies he's been told. See he did not attend a single joint meeting between east and west thus he has no clue as to what really transpired. Making claims that he can not back up with factual evidence, people or events that may or in all likelyhood DID not happen only makes him look foolish.

V the answers you seek are only a short research away. Stop relying or information that someone told you they heard from the guy who was jumpseating on a flight the captain said he heard in the crewroom by the first officer who over heard a conversation in the bar last night. Some people who post on this forum were actually there!!

Injunction

 

[Pi brat]

Take a really good look at this person ladies and gentleman because here is yet another in a long line of those who take information that he was fed be it false or otherwise as gospel. Afraid to research on his own because doing so just might uncover those lies he's been told. See he did not attend a single joint meeting between east and west thus he has no clue as to what really transpired. Making claims that he can not back up with factual evidence, people or events that may or in all likelyhood DID not happen only makes him look foolish.

V the answers you seek are only a short research away. Stop relying or information that someone told you they heard from the guy who was jumpseating on a flight the captain said he heard in the crewroom by the first officer who over heard a conversation in the bar last night. Some people who post on this forum were actually there!!

Injunction

A lot of bold statements in there. Do you actually know V? Is that how you can make those statements about what he did/did not do? Knew/ did not know?

 

[eastcoast]

Well, he did and he didn't. Of course he didn't staple us, but moving forward there are large numbers of east pilots whose relative % drops steeply with the Nic vs. east stand alone, while the west has many that receive that and their relative position moves up, Nic vs. west stand alone.

That's a fact. Maybe Nic thought that was the fair thing to do, but it does happen.

Do you know this guy well enough to really say he wants ALL the west attrition?

This is the problem. Too many for too long, look at their % and raw numbers instead of looking what their new number will buy them going forward in a bigger company, versus where they would have been absent this merger. And they assume absent the merger everything would have been just fine and dandy. Sure, I concede that everyone's % changes and in some cases drops steeply. But accepting the arbitrated award and getting a contract also means there is a company to return to, a big raise, better work rules, and they still get their captain seat, even if it's 2 or even 3-4 years later, it's not such a bad deal. No one is getting screwed so bad to have created such a mess that has kept every one of us on bankruptcy wages for so many years. I think it's more about egos, hopes of a future merger, and fear mongering than anything else.

I believe Nicolau did/does think its fair. I also think considering how our MEC hamstrung the negotiating committee, preventing us from presenting any ideas outside the box, Nicolau did the best he could and the responsibility for the result rests squarely on our collective heads. The right thing to do is move forward, accept the arbitrated award, and get the most improvements for the greatest number of pilots through contract improvements.

I don't know this guy. I am judging based on the actions of our union and those who support the path we are on.

IMO people forget that we had one foot in the grave, and absent the merger our days were numbered. USAPA has created a far greater mess than Nicolau did.

 

[eastcoast]

Actually DOH does not put furloughed pilots ahead of non-furloughed pilots. It would put formerly furloughed pilots ahead of formerly working pilots. The nic would actually put currently furloughed pilots ahead of currently working pilots.

More semantics and you know it. We are talking about at the PID. Lets stop pretending that anything that happened after the merger would have also happened absent the merger. Once the merger happened, the macro economics of the combined entity and the business plan changed.

 

[eastcoast]

You didn't answer the question of how long you have been a captain!

Nor will I. I won't tell any of you again. I'm not playing your childish game.

Remember we have been getting 85,000 for a number of years while you have been getting 40,000 more than that, and it's you that need a raise...

Yes, we ALL need a raise. I'm supposed to live out my career at f/o wages so you can wage your war? An industry average wage would get you and every 320 f/o close to current C/O rates. And not just a few guys checking out but ALL of them. That's what you say you want right? Now what if you had that for all the years before the checkout? And your checkout comes a few years later. Big deal. You still would have been ahead. That's why your stance does not hold water. It's not about the "big payoff" of making captain, it's all about the 4th stripe, your number at retirement, and the next dance partner.

 

[Black Swan]

US Airways' LOA 93 Grievance Hearing Opening Statement: February 1, 2010

Mr. Kasher.

We have more evidence.

We're going to introduce two emails sent by two ALPA MEC members.

The Pittsburgh pilots at the time of the ratification, urging the pilots to vote against ratification of Local 93 (sic).

The principal one of these emails is from the then First Officer Representative on the MEC, from Pittsburgh, John Brookman.

Mr. Brookman told the pilots that after studying Letter 93, he was convinced that it was, "Lacking in many areas."

And then he highlighted what he called, "The most onerous deficiencies. And here's how he described the first and most important onerous deficiency.

"The amendable date of LOA 93 is December 31, 2009. There are no snap backs or provisions for the pilot group to recoup any contractual provisions, benefits, or pay during the next five years, and realistically, under the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, it may take up to two additional years to negotiate any changes to the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

MEC member Brookman clearly did not assert or believe that there was an automatic 41 percent pay increase provided on January 1, 2010 because he recognized that there was a bargaining process on the amendable date and it could take a period of time to negotiation.

Click here to read the transcript.

Then Brookman got it wrong. So he said AMENABLE. It does not say amenable in the legal document. It does not say snap back either. It says FROZEN. Kasher has read the correct term contained in the document, FROZEN. If it said amenable, we wouldn't even be discussing the issue now. You are continuing to perpetuate the falsehood that the term AMENABLE is there. It isn't.

 

[Black Swan]

Nor will I. I won't tell any of you again. I'm not playing your childish game.



Yes, we ALL need a raise. I'm supposed to live out my career at f/o wages so you can wage your war? An industry average wage would get you and every 320 f/o close to current C/O rates. And not just a few guys checking out but ALL of them. That's what you say you want right? Now what if you had that for all the years before the checkout? And your checkout comes a few years later. Big deal. You still would have been ahead. That's why your stance does not hold water. It's not about the "big payoff" of making captain, it's all about the 4th stripe, your number at retirement, and the next dance partner.

American is coming down right now in wages. There is NO way Parker is going to give any dreamers on this board a raise unless you force him. The two groups are too divided. The reality is nobody is getting anything now. The only exception will be the East group which will get a financial raise, but no other contractual improvements.

 

[Move2CLT]

Amazing how I'm gone for four days and I come back to an east on east exchange.

Eastcoast represents a big majority of east Capt who are ready to hang this up. Most are just waiting for LOA93 to come out officially before pulling the trigger, but they're fed up now.

Our PHX rep Eric F. Is receiving more phone calls from east Captains than the easy reps are? Why? They're venting to him about how they've had it with Cleary. They've told Eric the want a contract now and they'll take the Nic.

Eastcoast is not atypical. I believe he represents the silent majority.

Breeze lacked conviction in his beliefs and thus had to remove himself from these boards. He cried long and hard enough to the mods to put me in a time out for four days, but that was a sacrifice I was will to make for this forum.

He's gone now and more easties are starting to figure it out here. The PMs I've gotten over the past two days prove that those like crazy are losing support faster than they can imagine.

And the circus at USAPA HQ continues minus Theur. He found his exit and bailed on his sinking ship.

And in response, Cleary raised his monthly stipend.

 

[Move2CLT]

American is coming down right now in wages. There is NO way Parker is going to give any dreamers on this board a raise unless you force him. The two groups are too divided. The reality is nobody is getting anything now. The only exception will be the East group which will get a financial raise, but no other contractual improvements.

Give it a rest swan. You're getting nothing more than you have now.