US Pilots Labor Discussion

[traderjake]

That's how PI operates- he fools himself all the time!

It called self deception.

It's the only way USAPA can justify what it's doing.

 

[Black Swan]

Hear it on the jumpseat a lot. In four years it's gone from, "I hope you (West) guys understand, I just need a contract and a raise so I'm voting for USAPA" to "We need a contract now. Everyone knows it will be the Nicolau."

They meant a contract, and exclusive of the Nic. The Nic does not give East pilots raises, only denies the attrition and upgrades. You continue to miscalculate OUR sentiment. I just had a West jumpseater who was senior, wants to fly the 76I and could. You juniors are stopping him, and he and a bunch of others are ready to take what their DOH gives them now. They are tired of the junior West guys holding up the deal, as are we.

 

[aquagreen73s]

It called self deception.

It's the only way USAPA can justify what it's doing.

And count on USAPA to never self-correct. Impact is inevitable.

 

[Move2CLT]

They meant a contract, and exclusive of the Nic. The Nic does not give East pilots raises, only denies the attrition and upgrades. You continue to miscalculate OUR sentiment. I just had a West jumpseater who was senior, wants to fly the 76I and could. You juniors are stopping him, and he and a bunch of others are ready to take what their DOH gives them now. They are tired of the junior West guys holding up the deal, as are we.

You do not get a contract without the Nic.

End of story so hang it up boo boo.

Too many easties on this board agree.

 

[Black Swan]

The Nic will be there boo boo. It's the only list for S22 the company has and USAPA doesn't want to submit a new one.

Then it is a NO. Even the courts get it. The only ones who don't are the West junior outnumberd F/O group.
9th Court of Appeals, San Francisco
"It is, however,
at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated."


That court, is dead on. It will NEVER be ratified.

 

[nycbusdriver]

US Airways' LOA 93 Grievance Hearing Opening Statement: February 1, 2010

Mr. Kasher.

We have more evidence.

We're going to introduce two emails sent by two ALPA MEC members.

The Pittsburgh pilots at the time of the ratification, urging the pilots to vote against ratification of Local 93 (sic).

The principal one of these emails is from the then First Officer Representative on the MEC, from Pittsburgh, John Brookman.

Mr. Brookman told the pilots that after studying Letter 93, he was convinced that it was, "Lacking in many areas."

And then he highlighted what he called, "The most onerous deficiencies. And here's how he described the first and most important onerous deficiency.

"The amendable date of LOA 93 is December 31, 2009. There are no snap backs or provisions for the pilot group to recoup any contractual provisions, benefits, or pay during the next five years, and realistically, under the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, it may take up to two additional years to negotiate any changes to the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

MEC member Brookman clearly did not assert or believe that there was an automatic 41 percent pay increase provided on January 1, 2010 because he recognized that there was a bargaining process on the amendable date and it could take a period of time to negotiation.

Click here to read the transcript.

Brookman probably said that. But, not being an attorney, he might have stumbled on a fact that many working under the RLA don't know. Contracts are amendable; Letters of Agreement can, and do, expire. So, Brookman misspoke and misunderstood what LOA 93 (the verbiage written by the company) said in legal terms. Additionally, Brookman was speaking more as a politician trying to get the membership to vote LOA 93 down. So, like very good (?!) politician, he painted the absolute worst picture of the agreement in order to sway the vote.

I doubt Kasher will seriously take Brookman's statement as evidence of what the LOA 93 actually states. Judging from the almost 4,000 posts on this thread, there is a lot of assertions about a lot of legal matters by a lot of folks (me included) who really are stating nothing but opinion, i.e. Addington, the Ninth, the RICO suit, and on and on.

I don't think LOA 93 is a lock for the pilots. I have always given it 50-50. But it will be interesting to see how, if he favors the company, Kasher tortures the law into fitting the FACT that the pay rates have an expiration (not amendable) date, while the rest of the LOA stays in effect until renegotiated. Something happened to LOA 93 on December 31, 2009. Kasher can't deny that as it is there in black and white in front of God and everybody. Then, what exactly happened? Only Kasher knows for sure. (I bloody well hope that he does by now, anyway.)

 

[crazystnic]

tell the truth.. when did you upgrade ...... I'm sure you have been getting captain pay for close to 25 or 30 years....

and you have the balls to state.

"And your checkout comes a few years later. Big deal."

why don't you come down to the crew room and say this....

you didn't build this place, you just got lucky enough to get hired a few years ahead ... 3-5 years of the guy sitting right next to you who has been living on a lot less for a lot longer...

you sir are pathetic

 

[Code Name V]

Take a really good look at this person ladies and gentleman because here is yet another in a long line of those who take information that he was fed be it false or otherwise as gospel. Afraid to research on his own because doing so just might uncover those lies he's been told. See he did not attend a single joint meeting between east and west thus he has no clue as to what really transpired. Making claims that he can not back up with factual evidence, people or events that may or in all likelyhood DID not happen only makes him look foolish.

V the answers you seek are only a short research away. Stop relying or information that someone told you they heard from the guy who was jumpseating on a flight the captain said he heard in the crewroom by the first officer who over heard a conversation in the bar last night. Some people who post on this forum were actually there!!

Injunction

OK, I'll bite. What part are you claiming is hearsay? The part about the attrition or the part about Wye river? Again, not that any of it will make a whit of difference in the end. We will remain separate ops forever and move up accordingly. The anger, animosity, and the resentment has not diminished one iota. There is no way they can put this together and still have an airline. It would be even better than a strike. The company shot themselves in the foot with their lack of intellect or leadership. Morons to the end.


V

 

[traderjake]

you didn't build this place, you just got lucky enough to get hired a few years ahead ...

You didn't build this place either.

You went to work and collected a paycheck just like everyone else.

Given our reputation in the industry if you did build this place you should have been fired a long time ago.

 

[crazystnic]

You didn't build this place either.

You went to work and collected a paycheck just like everyone else.

Given our reputation in the industry if you did build this place you should have been fired a long time ago.

'
I agree, but he said he and his senior captains built this place.
what a bunch of BS... I've been flying airplanes since 14 years old, came from an rEAL airline family and my Old man would roll over in his grave listening to this guy and his attitude... But my Old man was lucky enough to retire at 55 and still get his EAL retirment... but I think it was because of his attitude... karma does have a way of coming around.

 

[Move2CLT]

Brookman probably said that. But, not being an attorney, he might have stumbled on a fact that many working under the RLA don't know. Contracts are amendable; Letters of Agreement can, and do, expire. So, Brookman misspoke and misunderstood what LOA 93 (the verbiage written by the company) said in legal terms. Additionally, Brookman was speaking more as a politician trying to get the membership to vote LOA 93 down. So, like very good (?!) politician, he painted the absolute worst picture of the agreement in order to sway the vote.

I doubt Kasher will seriously take Brookman's statement as evidence of what the LOA 93 actually states. Judging from the almost 4,000 posts on this thread, there is a lot of assertions about a lot of legal matters by a lot of folks (me included) who really are stating nothing but opinion, i.e. Addington, the Ninth, the RICO suit, and on and on.

I don't think LOA 93 is a lock for the pilots. I have always given it 50-50. But it will be interesting to see how, if he favors the company, Kasher tortures the law into fitting the FACT that the pay rates have an expiration (not amendable) date, while the rest of the LOA stays in effect until renegotiated. Something happened to LOA 93 on December 31, 2009. Kasher can't deny that as it is there in black and white in front of God and everybody. Then, what exactly happened? Only Kasher knows for sure. (I bloody well hope that he does by now, anyway.)

Something did happen. It became amendable. And you need a new contract that has the Nic in it to get out from underneath it.

 

[Move2CLT]

Another one who has not obviously read the document. It doesn't say snapback.

Brookman used that wording.

 

[Pi brat]

That's how PI operates- he fools himself all the time!

Hey sheep girl, I didn't fool you, I schooled you and pretty much shut you up for a while about our "active pilots". You are dismissed, again.

 

[Pi brat]

It called self deception.

It's the only way USAPA can justify what it's doing.

You want to say that to me personally Jake? We can get together some time and talk about it. When we flew together, I explained my position on a variety and you agreed with me on a lot of issues, the lump sum payout comes to mind. You said you had never heard my POV and after hearing it agreed with me.

Let me give you a clue, stay away from prechill, she's not that bright.

I'm not USAPA. If you keep up, you will know I have quite a bit of heartburn with some of the unions actions. That doesn't make all the rest of this bunch right.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Brookman probably said that. But, not being an attorney, he might have stumbled on a fact that many working under the RLA don't know. Contracts are amendable; Letters of Agreement can, and do, expire. So, Brookman misspoke and misunderstood what LOA 93 (the verbiage written by the company) said in legal terms. Additionally, Brookman was speaking more as a politician trying to get the membership to vote LOA 93 down. So, like very good (?!) politician, he painted the absolute worst picture of the agreement in order to sway the vote.

I doubt Kasher will seriously take Brookman's statement as evidence of what the LOA 93 actually states. Judging from the almost 4,000 posts on this thread, there is a lot of assertions about a lot of legal matters by a lot of folks (me included) who really are stating nothing but opinion, i.e. Addington, the Ninth, the RICO suit, and on and on.

I don't think LOA 93 is a lock for the pilots. I have always given it 50-50. But it will be interesting to see how, if he favors the company, Kasher tortures the law into fitting the FACT that the pay rates have an expiration (not amendable) date, while the rest of the LOA stays in effect until renegotiated. Something happened to LOA 93 on December 31, 2009. Kasher can't deny that as it is there in black and white in front of God and everybody. Then, what exactly happened? Only Kasher knows for sure. (I bloody well hope that he does by now, anyway.)

Pilot pay was frozen under LOA93 until the two annual lump sum payments. The "frozen until" date means two specific things - 1) the pilot pay rates became amendable at that date so that the CBA and Management would be required to begin working on a new CBA. LOA 93 didn't authorize any change in pay rates as it merely ensured that no change in rates would occur before the amendable date when ultimately new rates would be established via negotiations; and 2) the lump sum payments were authorized by the agreement in lieu of any other wages considerations. The lump sums are the negotiated return on investment for the east pilots for agreeing to LOA93 while the company was in bankruptcy and to gain approval from the MIGS versus the documented court-imposed and more severe contract terms.

Kasher can read the black and white print of the agreement as you suggest, but your 50:50 estimate is way too generous for the odds of a USAPA win. There is certainly a better chance of Kasher restoring pay than say USAPA attaining a non-NIC JCBA, but the probability of Kasher restoring pay rates is still a number significantly closer to zero compared to the odds of a simple coin flip.