US Pilots Labor Discussion

[aquagreen73s]

I'm still hearing crickets.

You diehard USAPAians do understand that what Cleary basically told you today in his President's Message is that USAPA can't deliver DOH. You do realize that, don't you?

 

[traderjake]

Four arbitrators in a row did not have the US Airways and America West lists in front of them, one of which was fraudulent, and with the commensurate disparities between the two groups.

Four arbitrators in a row said that slotting by equipment and status was fair and DOH/LOS is not.

The disparities between the groups is your opinion based on the false assumption that LOS means more than the actual position one brought to the merger.

The fraudulent nature of the list is also an opinion at this point.

If the courts rule in favor of the MDA pilots then the list will have to be adjusted but that does not negate the entire award.

The E 190 Captains would be slotted above the 320/737 F/Os and the E 190 F/O at the bottom of the list.

 

[prechilill]

Anyone seen Reed Richards or Black Swan tonight? I'm a little worried about those fellers- hope they have enough Kleenex to make it through the night. Seriously, I'm genuinely worried

 

[aquagreen73s]

Anyone seen Reed Richards or Black Swan tonight? I'm a little worried about those fellers- hope they have enough Kleenex to make it through the night. Seriously, I'm genuinely worried

I think they're way past Kleenex. How many mgs of Tylenol PM is the dangerous level?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I disagree but it's only my read. I think Cleary is saying 3 things:

1 - All the legal battles have drained USAPA's coffers and there's no end in sight. His stipend might even be in jeopardy.

2 - Cleary and the BPR are getting increasing pressure to get a contract. People are tired of waiting for a raise and are seeing that it can be a couple of hundred getting a raise each year by attrition movement or everyone getting a raise with a new contract.

3 - Cleary's idea of compromise is to negotiate the C&R's - "What are the minimum C&R's necessary to get the west of accept DOH?"

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

I disagree but it's only my read. I think Cleary is saying 3 things:

1 - All the legal battles have drained USAPA's coffers and there's no end in sight. His stipend might even be in jeopardy.

2 - Cleary and the BPR are getting increasing pressure to get a contract. People are tired of waiting for a raise and are seeing that it can be a couple of hundred getting a raise each year by attrition movement or everyone getting a raise with a new contract.

3 - Cleary's idea of compromise is to negotiate the C&R's - "What are the minimum C&R's necessary to get the west of accept DOH?"

Jim

I think your point 3 is accurate, but that in itself is an admission that he can't deliver the "gold standard."

This is just the first step, and it's a big one. The West will wait this out as we're not the ones starving.

 

[cleardirect]

Hey Swan. All of your yamering about what the ninth said. Your president just cut your legs out from under you.

Likewise, litigation is not the answer. Collectively we have spent too much on legal battles that have taken years without finding any answer. The Declaratory Judgment action may or may not decide either that USAPA has the authority to negotiate something other than the Nicolau Award or not.

You keep saying that the ninth told you usapa could bargain for something other than the nicolau. That usapa did not have to use the Nicolau.

Read this carefully. Cleary's own words. It may or MAY NOT decide if usapa has the authority to negotiate something other than the Nicolau. Finally. A lawyer that convinced usapa what the ninth really said. Or the comm chair bailing off the sinking ship someone else could not spin it to fit your fantasy.

Cleary just told you that it may HAVE to be Nicolau and is now looking for a way out. And the usapa walls come tumbling down. Damn that has got to sting for you guys. A loss from Kasher and I am going to worry about all of you. Might be more than you guys can handle.

What did I tell you guys a few days ago?

The west will NOT compromise, negotiate, mediate, bargain, change a comma in the Nicolau award. You guys are going to take it whole, as is. 4 years of wasted time and money is going to be a bitter pill to swallow for you guys.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I think your point 3 is accurate, but that in itself is an admission that he can't deliver the "gold standard."

Not the "gold standard" of straight, no C&R's, DOH but I think they realized that all along - USAPA's only SLI proposal includes C&R's, as laughable as they are. But I'll admit that every time an eastie mentions compromise here I take it as asking what it'd take C&R-wise for the westies to accept a DOH list. That feeling comes from the silence that follows a suggestion to take the Nic and put USAPA's C&R's on it for the east - no takers for that.

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

Not the "gold standard" of straight, no C&R's, DOH but I think they realized that all along - USAPA's only SLI proposal includes C&R's, as laughable as they are. But I'll admit that every time an eastie mentions compromise here I take it as asking what it'd take C&R-wise for the westies to accept a DOH list. That feeling comes from the silence that follows a suggestion to take the Nic and put USAPA's C&R's on it for the east - no takers for that.

Jim

Yes, and the silence to your rebuttal question tells the world that the Easties know they're trying to get away with a sham.

 

[fodase]

I disagree but it's only my read. I think Cleary is saying 3 things:

1 - All the legal battles have drained USAPA's coffers and there's no end in sight. His stipend might even be in jeopardy.

2 - Cleary and the BPR are getting increasing pressure to get a contract. People are tired of waiting for a raise and are seeing that it can be a couple of hundred getting a raise each year by attrition movement or everyone getting a raise with a new contract.

3 - Cleary's idea of compromise is to negotiate the C&R's - "What are the minimum C&R's necessary to get the west of accept DOH?"

Jim

Actually, the read is that the chance of the company being offered immunity on the DJ case is slim to none as realyed to the bpr by the new attorney's, leaving the company no choice but to stick with the Nic. The "mediation" offer is nothing less than an attempt to ingratiate themselves to the court, we will see if the judge bites.

 

[Injunction junction]

Not the "gold standard" of straight, no C&R's, DOH but I think they realized that all along - USAPA's only SLI proposal includes C&R's, as laughable as they are. But I'll admit that every time an eastie mentions compromise here I take it as asking what it'd take C&R-wise for the westies to accept a DOH list. That feeling comes from the silence that follows a suggestion to take the Nic and put USAPA's C&R's on it for the east - no takers for that.

Jim

Well many have tried to see what the west will take in for DOH to exist here and I think the answer over and over has been Nic and only the Nic and nothing else. Jim usapa has lost the loa93 arbitration and we are just a month and days away from 2012 the year the 65'ers start retiring and here at LCC. They will retire here with little to show for the last 5yrs.

The silence is in fact deafening because they are now seeing that they have been wrong. Like I said before, its not about being right its about doing right.

Injunction

 

[Injunction junction]

Actually, the read is that the chance of the company being offered immunity on the DJ case is slim to none as realyed to the bpr by the new attorney's, leaving the company no choice but to stick with the Nic. The "mediation" offer is nothing less than an attempt to ingratiate themselves to the court, we will see if the judge bites.

The problem with that is and I must applaud the new legal team for trying is mediation has already happened in the seniority case. First came mediation and that was followed by final and binding arbitration. They keep wanting second bites at the same apple. There will be no immunity/indemnity for LCC against west lawsuits. That will force the company to tell usapa we are using the nic then comes the next merger.

Injunction

 

[fodase]

The problem with that is and I must applaud the new legal team for trying is mediation has already happened in the seniority case. First came mediation and that was followed by final and binding arbitration. They keep wanting second bites at the same apple. There will be no immunity/indemnity for LCC against west lawsuits. That will force the company to tell usapa we are using the nic then comes the next merger.

Injunction

Not only that but this suit is to establish the companies rights, the lawsuit is usair vs usapa/aol as co-defendants, not aol vs usapa. Of course this all but shows that the 9th got it 100% wrong.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not only that but this suit is to establish the companies rights, the lawsuit is usair vs usapa/aol as co-defendants, not aol vs usapa. Of course this all but shows that the 9th got it 100% wrong.

My non-lawyers version is that question 1 and 2 are off the table. Whether the 9th got it right or wrong, their ruling on ripeness is precedent for Silver so if she says yes to either of those she's breaking with precedent and effectively over-ruling the 9th and saying that the DFR case is both ripe and the merits adjudicated. Question 3 is the oddball and I see little reason for her to give the company a get out of jail free card.

Jim

 

[fodase]

My non-lawyers version is that question 1 and 2 are off the table. Whether the 9th got it right or wrong, their ruling on ripeness is precedent for Silver so if she says yes to either of those she's breaking with precedent and effectively over-ruling the 9th and saying that the DFR case is both ripe and the merits adjudicated.

Logic would say that, but because the company is now involved it changes the fact set that led to the 9th's decision. Although not great, there is a chance one of these questions will be answered ( maybe one of the more knowledgeable west guys can give details on why it's different question now)

Question 3 is the oddball and I see little reason for her to give the company a get out of jail free card.

Jim

Yep, in fact usapa's the new law firm briefed the bpr that there is virtually no chance the company will be given immunity, guaranteeing the Nic. or loa 93, usapa's choice.