US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

Would it help to go back into arbitration and redo the list?

You're kidding, right?

 

[Move2CLT]

The process was mutually agreed to. The solution was not. No one reneged on anything. You are mistaken and have been for quite some time. The 9th makes it abundantly clear that ratification is required to codify a process or a contract. Nothing new, nothing ratified. You seem to have personal reasons for ignoring this most basic of legal principles.

You should take that to the judge! Tell her move sent you.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Four arbitrators in a row said that slotting by equipment and status was fair and DOH/LOS is not.

The disparities between the groups is your opinion based on the false assumption that LOS means more than the actual position one brought to the merger.

The fraudulent nature of the list is also an opinion at this point.

If the courts rule in favor of the MDA pilots then the list will have to be adjusted but that does not negate the entire award.

The E 190 Captains would be slotted above the 320/737 F/Os and the E 190 F/O at the bottom of the list.

Four arbitrators did not say DOH/LOS was not fair.

Four arbitrators said NOTHING about DOH/LOS, they simply ruled on the situation presented to them.

The idea that they said DOH/LOS is unfair is YOUR OPINION, not theirs.

 

[fodase]

Four arbitrators did not say DOH/LOS was not fair.

Four arbitrators said NOTHING about DOH/LOS, they simply ruled on the situation presented to them.

The idea that they said DOH/LOS is unfair is YOUR OPINION, not theirs.

Well there is a little problem, an arbitration was already completed and accepted by our management in our merger, as required by the TA and agreed to by all parties (east/west/management) before usapa became our bargaining agent. Do you truly believe that fact has no bearing going forward?

 

[john john]

But, you can't escape binding arbitration by forming a new union. Wait..you will see. Real men stick to their agreements, why is that so hard for the East to figure out?

Like the contracts all US unions had pre HP. why didn’t Real men management stick to their agreements,

 

[eastcoast]

Four arbitrators did not say DOH/LOS was not fair.

Four arbitrators said NOTHING about DOH/LOS, they simply ruled on the situation presented to them.

The idea that they said DOH/LOS is unfair is YOUR OPINION, not theirs.

You miss the point. We're not talking about opinions here. How many people have been crowing that DOH is the "gold standard" and the only fair/right/time-proven way to integrate? It clearly is not.

DOH sure COULD be fair under certain situations. Just not ours... IMO

 

[eastcoast]

You know something interesting? I was on a certain 320 pilot's board for a while, and one of the guys that was screaming the loudest about not getting a contract was a pilot from BOS that voted for USAPA! That wouldn't be you, would it?

There you go again PI, throwing in with your lynch mob buddies and their peer pressure tactics. You really are a hard one to read. One minute you sound like there's a hint of self reflection and acceptance that there are varying opinions. The next you want to play the same childish games of 'I think I know who you are and we're coming to get you in the crew room.'

I will not engage in these pointless exchanges. You can believe whatever helps you sleep at night. It makes no difference to me.

 

[A320 Driver]

Well there is a little problem, an arbitration was already completed and accepted by our management in our merger, as required by the TA and agreed to by all parties (east/west/management) before usapa became our bargaining agent. Do you truly believe that fact has no bearing going forward?

Seems like I've heard this before...MANY times. If you want peace, you will consider an alternative. You don't live in a bubble. I truly believe that if either side wins, both sides lose in the long run. That of course is your choice.

Driver B)

 

[Captain Underpants]

In other words, the east will get what they want - a DOH list. And the west gets? "Reasonable" C&R's with "reasonable" decided by USAPA and presumably a few west pilots picked by USAPA. The 51% of west voting to ratify a contract is a silly claim - all USAPA and the east want is enough west votes to ratify. With a DOH contract, the east might be able to ratify without a single west vote. After all, 51% of west voting to ratify won't guarantee no DFR suit any more than 1 west vote.

Jim

Jim,

All the West pilots are now certified as a class in the DJ lawsuit disputing seniority rights. Legally the West pilots are represented by the Addington class representative pilots. The class representatives can enter into settlement talks to settle the seniority dispute for the entire class of pre-merger West pilots. The court has ruled their seniority interests are all essentially the same by certifying the class.The goal of mediated talks would be a mutual seniority agreement requiring separate ratification sometime before proceeding with contract ratification containing the mutual seniority agreement. Basically the same thing ALPA tried to do unsuccessfully at Wye River and SWA/AirTran just did successfully.

The class action settlement would be subject to court approval and individual West pilots could opt out of the class before the talks and preserve their right to sue USAPA on their own later. The opt out pilots would have to fund their own lawsuits to try to prove they deserve more seniority than the class settlement and the first couple of cases would set the precedent for the rest.

The choice the West pilots would face in a vote would be DOH with C&R's or continuing permanent separate operations. The West pilots would decide by majority vote if the C&R's were "reasonable". If the West class decides to walk out of the mediated negotiations again USAPA could put their last best offer up for the pre-merger West pilot class to vote on.

underpants

 

[Pi brat]

There you go again PI, throwing in with your lynch mob buddies and their peer pressure tactics. You really are a hard one to read. One minute you sound like there's a hint of self reflection and acceptance that there are varying opinions. The next you want to play the same childish games of 'I think I know who you are and we're coming to get you in the crew room.'

I will not engage in these pointless exchanges. You can believe whatever helps you sleep at night. It makes no difference to me.

I probably had that coming. Boards are a hard way to communicate, and I must be pretty bad at it as a lot of people misunderstand me. Maybe I need more emoticons, but mine are disabled for some reason that no one as US AV has answered.

I wasn't meant to be an accusation, or seeking to find out who you were. It was a slightly snarky way of saying "you didn't get what you asked for, did you?"

My apologies.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Jim,

All the West pilots are now certified as a class in the DJ lawsuit disputing seniority rights. Legally the West pilots are represented by the Addington class representative pilots. The class representatives can enter into settlement talks to settle the seniority dispute for the entire class of pre-merger West pilots. The court has ruled their seniority interests are all essentially the same by certifying the class.The goal of mediated talks would be a mutual seniority agreement requiring separate ratification sometime before proceeding with contract ratification containing the mutual seniority agreement. Basically the same thing ALPA tried to do unsuccessfully at Wye River and SWA/AirTran just did successfully.

The class action settlement would be subject to court approval and individual West pilots could opt out of the class before the talks and preserve their right to sue USAPA on their own later. The opt out pilots would have to fund their own lawsuits to try to prove they deserve more seniority than the class settlement and the first couple of cases would set the precedent for the rest.

The choice the West pilots would face in a vote would be DOH with C&R's or continuing permanent separate operations. The West pilots would decide by majority vote if the C&R's were "reasonable". If the West class decides to walk out of the mediated negotiations again USAPA could put their last best offer up for the pre-merger West pilot class to vote on.

underpants

I can only say, you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

You miss the point. We're not talking about opinions here. How many people have been crowing that DOH is the "gold standard" and the only fair/right/time-proven way to integrate? It clearly is not.

You either deliberately misinterpret the rulings or you misinterpreted your source, assuming the opinions you express are not really yours (which, from you lack of understanding, seems likely).

DOH was not brought up in a meaningful way in those four, therefore, there was no comment. Did you hear the arbs comment on "freedom"? Does that mean that "freedom" is not a "gold standard"?

Do try to keep up.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Jim,

The choice the West pilots would face in a vote would be DOH with C&R's or continuing permanent separate operations. The West pilots would decide by majority vote if the C&R's were "reasonable". If the West class decides to walk out of the mediated negotiations again USAPA could put their last best offer up for the pre-merger West pilot class to vote on.

underpants

I support the initiative to explore mediation, regardless of what Cleary's motives are for doing so. The present course reminds me of a movie I saw about a big boat, starring Leonardo DiCaprio.

I disagree with your last paragraph. If the BPR confers upon the west class special, extraordinary, one-time authority and autonomy to negotiate with the east, then all options are open, the whole spectrum, not just DOH with C&R's. That may be our side's opener, but they may open with staple the east.

This would have to be an open and honest effort, which means modify both the Nic as well as DOH from their present form.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

The next you want to play the same childish games of 'I think I know who you are and we're coming to get you in the crew room.'

Your addled cranium seems unusually over-heated today.

It is PHL where they "get you", DCA they GPS your car, CLT they burn your car and PHX you are not invited to the next party. So, where are you based?

 

[CallawayGolf]

I can only say, you have no idea what you're talking about.

True. But even if the Addington class could represent the west pilots in a fresh round of meditations, what would motivate any of the west pilots to yield more ground to the east than what the NIC already gave them? The NIC gives east the top 517 super seniority positions and then 2/3 of the integrated list. Even in a capitulation that USAPA cannot attain a DOH contract by legal means or by an illegal work action, Cleary's modus operandi is still to ask the west to give up more so that he can save face and retain his power.

Cleary is just like Congress; he derives his power from frivolously spending other peoples' money. Then when the folly of his failed pursuits funded by someone else's money is exposed he doesn't seek to correct the problem but instead tries to find a way to extract more from the people he has already harmed beyond measure. This was no act of contrition or apology for leading the pilots astray; this was just an admission that the east will not get all they dreamed of four years ago so its now time to move fractionally towards a compromise that still harms the west for the benefit of the east. The west would be foolish to fall for this ploy even if they had a legal way of reentering negotiations without a separate representational authority under the RLA.