US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Hate has nothing to do with it, at least from the West hate has nothing to do with it.

Really? How about resjud? uhaul? pre? The guy on the crew news video that said"We hate you guys!", and then some of your posts leave that impression ....................

 

[aquagreen73s]

Really? How about resjud? uhaul? pre? The guy on the crew news video that said"We hate you guys!", and then some of your posts leave that impression ....................

I have no idea what you're talking about regarding the Crew News, and I hope you of all people don't take the words of one to characterize an entire group.

As for my posts, you're confusing hate with utter DISGUST.

 

[flybynite]

You're kidding, right?

Well, no, I'm not.

This has been going on for a long time and quite frankly, there has to be a better way out of this besides suing each other's pants off.

Can't you guys and gals sit down....together...and hash out some kind of hybrid list that would be acceptable to all parties? I think you can and you should.

I know it's a long shot but you have nothing to lose by trying and everything to gain.

Just my opinion.....not trying to ruffle anymore feathers. 🙂

 

[aquagreen73s]

This has been going on for a long time and quite frankly, there has to be a better way out of this besides suing each other's pants off.

No there isn't another way and the company's DJ tells you everything you need to know. Bradford and $eham conveniently ended the possibility of the West and East being on equal footing to negotiate anything, let alone seniority. They had to do that in order to effect their cram down, which, as it turns out, is not going to work. There was a significant wrinkle in their plan which they conveniently didn't tell the rank and file on the East - the company can be held liable for USAPA's DFR. That little fact is now what's driving the situation. Even changing unions and recreating the West is a DFR at this point, because they'd be doing it for one purpose which is to advantage the East over the West. There would be plenty of West pilots lining up to sue under a DFR if say the IBT tried to put us back to where we were with ALPA in late 2007. The possibility of compromise died on April 18th, 2008 when the East thought they could use a majority vote to take from the West. They are the ones who made this an all-or-nothing situation.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So you are standing by your statements that:
....That the West pilots as a group no longer exist to negotiate or vote

Are these proven facts or maybe just wishful thinking?

That one is a provable fact - just ask the NMB who is legally entitled to negotiate on behalf of the west pilots. The NMB certainly won't say AOL, the named Addington plaintiffs, or the west class of pilots. The NMB will tell you that only USAPA is legally entitled to represent ALL LCC pilots and that all LCC pilots that are MIGS are allowed to vote on matters that are subject to membership ratification. As far as the NMB is concerned, there are no east and west pilots, just LCC pilots.

Negotiation, mediation, and arbitration occurred when there were east and west pilots, each represented by different MEC's. Don't confuse negotiations over seniority with a court case where individual's common interests can result in class status for the legal proceedings only.

Jim

 

[Res Judicata]

I support the initiative to explore mediation, regardless of what Cleary's motives are for doing so. The present course reminds me of a movie I saw about a big boat, starring Leonardo DiCaprio.

I disagree with your last paragraph. If the BPR confers upon the west class special, extraordinary, one-time authority and autonomy to negotiate with the east, then all options are open, the whole spectrum, not just DOH with C&R's. That may be our side's opener, but they may open with staple the east.

This would have to be an open and honest effort, which means modify both the Nic as well as DOH from their present form.

Of course you support mediation! There is nowhere to go but UP for you as you Emotional morons have failed miserably to move fwd a nanometer in the last 6 years. Mediation is a non starter. Your choices have not changed nic., or LOA93 in perpetuity. There is no do over.

Forget it. Our lawyers saw this coming last summer. They're prepared. You'll find out what that means on the first.

 

[aquagreen73s]

That one is a provable fact - just ask the NMB who is legally entitled to negotiate on behalf of the west pilots. The NMB certainly won't say AOL, the named Addington plaintiffs, or the west class of pilots. The NMB will tell you that only USAPA is legally entitled to represent ALL LCC pilots and that all LCC pilots that are MIGS are allowed to vote on matters that are subject to membership ratification. As far as the NMB is concerned, there are no east and west pilots, just LCC pilots.

Negotiation, mediation, and arbitration occurred when there were east and west pilots, each represented by different MEC's. Don't confuse negotiations over seniority with a court case where individual's common interests can result in class status for the legal proceedings only.

Jim

As far as we can tell, there has never been a case where the NMB reversed a single carrier determination for the purposes of allowing two groups within the formerly single carrier to negotiate. Never. Single carrier status marked the passing of the event horizon - there's no going back. The company is the entity that filed for and received single carrier. Parker is the one, yet he also is chirping about compromise to the West; as if it's our fault. Unbelievable. He did his part and Bradford did USAPA's part to create this all-or-nothing paradigm, yet now it's USAPA and Parker saying the West has to compromise. After what those two have done, how?

 

[cleardirect]

Okay then. You don't like the Nic and we don't like the Nic. Lets sit down and devise a better mousetrap.

NO!

No way, no how!

NO! Hell NO! F NO!



Got it?

 

[cleardirect]

Well, no, I'm not.

This has been going on for a long time and quite frankly, there has to be a better way out of this besides suing each other's pants off.

Can't you guys and gals sit down....together...and hash out some kind of hybrid list that would be acceptable to all parties? I think you can and you should.

I know it's a long shot but you have nothing to lose by trying and everything to gain.

Just my opinion.....not trying to ruffle anymore feathers. 🙂

We trying that all ready. We could not agree so we went to arbitration. A neutral ruled.

Now the east wants a redo. We could not agree before how are we going to agree now?

DOH is a no go. We have the Nicolau award. Sitting down and hashing something out. Is the west going to come away with more or less than what the arbitrator gave us? If we come away with less how is that good for the west and why would we do that? Have not heard a single thing the east is offering all I hear is what they want from us.

Are you willing to sit down with the company and give back some pay for no reason or nothing in return?

 

[CallawayGolf]

<snip> ... They are the ones who made this an all-or-nothing situation.

And furthermore, they (USAPA) are the only ones who can resolve the central issue outside of a federal injunction. Every money pit legal proceeding and contract-delaying negotiation tactic would be wiped clean tomorrow if USAPA accepted the NIC today. The NY status quo case would be history; the PHX DJ case would be history; the NC TRO could be lifted by Management request (if they thought USAPA was negotiating in good faith); and the JCBA negotiations could proceed quickly even under the NMB oversight once this seniority log jam is resolved. USAPA could easily accomplish all of this and save millions in legal fees and working to get hundreds of millions in pay improvements by simply accepting the already foregone conclusion that the NIC is it. $eham may still want his pound of flesh from Cleary's backside, but that's for those two unscrupulous characters to work out among themselves.

 

[exB717Flyer]

The seniority math here is simple. In mediation the East can only gain and the West can only lose.

Kim Jong Cleary didn't just decide to make this proposal now for no reason. Nobody suddenly decides to try negotiation when they think they'll win otherwise. The law has been on the West's side from the beginning and now that the criminally-incompetent $eham is out of the picture things get more interesting.

Expect USAPA's forthcoming motion to Judge Silver to make a satisfying clunk on the floor before it rolls out the door.

 

[luvn737s]

You may yet see USAPA accept the NIC, but behind the scenes support efforts to ensure any contract with it is voted down. With their lack of credibility, it's not much of a threat, but a ballsy gamble.

Ballsy Gamble - maybe that should be the USAPA mascot.

 

[luvn737s]

That one is a provable fact - just ask the NMB who is legally entitled to negotiate on behalf of the west pilots. The NMB certainly won't say AOL, the named Addington plaintiffs, or the west class of pilots. The NMB will tell you that only USAPA is legally entitled to represent ALL LCC pilots and that all LCC pilots that are MIGS are allowed to vote on matters that are subject to membership ratification. As far as the NMB is concerned, there are no east and west pilots, just LCC pilots.

Will USAPA pay the west class of pilots to finance their side of the legal proceedings now? I mean, AOL can't legally require west pilots to pay again after they have already paid (nee extorted) their money to USAPA.

 

[Pi brat]

I have no idea what you're talking about regarding the Crew News, and I hope you of all people don't take the words of one to characterize an entire group.

As for my posts, you're confusing hate with utter DISGUST.

Really, you missed that? Too bad, it was great! He looked in the camera and with what looked like tears in his eyes spat out "We HATE you guys!". You know what was better? He came back to two more and asked really good questions about the condition of AWA before the merger and something else and Parker or Kirby handed him his rear. I'm pretty sure I heard groans in the background.

No I don't let one person's words characterize an entire group. I know there are a lot of good guys over there, but I'm pretty sure there are a large number that hate us all and will until they die.

 

[cleardirect]

And furthermore, they (USAPA) are the only ones who can resolve the central issue outside of a federal injunction. Every money pit legal proceeding and contract-delaying negotiation tactic would be wiped clean tomorrow if USAPA accepted the NIC today. The NY status quo case would be history; the PHX DJ case would be history; the NC TRO could be lifted by Management request (if they thought USAPA was negotiating in good faith); and the JCBA negotiations could proceed quickly even under the NMB oversight once this seniority log jam is resolved. USAPA could easily accomplish all of this and save millions in legal fees and working to get hundreds of millions in pay improvements by simply accepting the already foregone conclusion that the NIC is it. $eham may still want his pound of flesh from Cleary's backside, but that's for those two unscrupulous characters to work out among themselves.

I forgot about usapa's "logjam" argument they used in federal court. Seham told the court that usapa was created to break the logjam that ALPA created.

So all you usapa supporters. How has that worked out for you? Almost 4 years later still have the same logjam that you east pilots created. Now you want to come to the west pilots with the attitude you want to deal. Well to bad boys you should have come with that attitude 6 years ago, that was the time to not now. Not after all of the crap you guys have pulled.

How are you going to pay back all the money you have cost us? How are you going to repay all of the upgrades you have taken? How are you going to repay the time you have cost us?