US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Captain Underpants]

I can only say, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Aqua,

So you are standing by your statements that:
....The LOA 93 decision was already released last January but Cleary is hiding it because the company won
....That the West pilots as a group no longer exist to negotiate or vote
....That there is no other possible path or outcome to the seniority dispute but Nic?

Are these proven facts or maybe just wishful thinking?

I can only say, you have no idea what you're talking about.

underpants

 

[A320 Driver]

I support the initiative to explore mediation, regardless of what Cleary's motives are for doing so. The present course reminds me of a movie I saw about a big boat, starring Leonardo DiCaprio.

I disagree with your last paragraph. If the BPR confers upon the west class special, extraordinary, one-time authority and autonomy to negotiate with the east, then all options are open, the whole spectrum, not just DOH with C&R's. That may be our side's opener, but they may open with staple the east.

This would have to be an open and honest effort, which means modify both the Nic as well as DOH from their present form.

Someone needs to dust off the Merger Committee's FIRST proposals before the MEC interfered. They were reasonable IMO. They had all the data to support the position.

Driver B)

 

[A320 Driver]

True. But even if the Addington class could represent the west pilots in a fresh round of meditations, what would motivate any of the west pilots to yield more ground to the east than what the NIC already gave them? The NIC gives east the top 517 super seniority positions and then 2/3 of the integrated list. Even in a capitulation that USAPA cannot attain a DOH contract by legal means or by an illegal work action, Cleary's modus operandi is still to ask the west to give up more so that he can save face and retain his power.

Cleary is just like Congress; he derives his power from frivolously spending other peoples' money. Then when the folly of his failed pursuits funded by someone else's money is exposed he doesn't seek to correct the problem but instead tries to find a way to extract more from the people he has already harmed beyond measure. This was no act of contrition or apology for leading the pilots astray; this was just an admission that the east will not get all they dreamed of four years ago so its now time to move fractionally towards a compromise that still harms the west for the benefit of the east. The west would be foolish to fall for this ploy even if they had a legal way of reentering negotiations without a separate representational authority under the RLA.

LOL!!!
We'll take that as a NO...

Driver 😛

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

True. But even if the Addington class could represent the west pilots in a fresh round of meditations, what would motivate any of the west pilots to yield more ground to the east than what the NIC already gave them?

Jerry,

Thank you for admitting to a wind-fall for the west pilots.

Cache this.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Someone needs to dust off the Merger Committee's FIRST proposals before the MEC interfered. They were reasonable IMO. They had all the data to support the position.

Driver B)

They may very well have been reasonable, I actually believe you that they were. Would they get by Napolean and crew? I guess that would be one way to tell how genuine this move is, or isn't. I think it's beside the point now anyway, but that's just me. I'm not expecting this to gain traction.

 

[aquagreen73s]

True. But even if the Addington class could represent the west pilots in a fresh round of meditations, what would motivate any of the west pilots to yield more ground to the east than what the NIC already gave them?

I agree with everything you say. I just care not to engage a game of whack-a-mole with a card carrying member of the delusional faction on the East. It will never end with those guys. They will sit around and dream up the most insane notions and about what the law says, and then not let go. We've spent four years whacking away at stuff coming from the delusional faction and it's getting us nowhere. The only thing we can do is to flat out ignore them. THere's more than enough rational pilots on the East (Eastcoastflyer and TraderJake for example) who understand that we just need to take the Nic and move on, otherwise we'll be in the endless, delusion driven loop. Mediation will not happen. There is no legal basis for it, other than it's all O'Dwyer has to play on December 1st. We are going to proceed to the DJ and Silver will provide whatever guidance the law allows her. I don't think that guidance will be as comprehensive as you say, but if you are right then good for the West.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Jerry,

Thank you for admitting to a wind-fall for the west pilots.

Cache this.

Not sure who Jerry is, but feel free to keep guessing.

Perhaps you misunderstand what I wrote. Yielding more ground than what the NIC already gave "them" is a reference to what NIC gave the east not the west. The east got the top 517 WB super seniority positions and then 2/3 of the rest of the NB seniority slots for active pilots at the PID. Under the NIC every active east pilot gained relative seniority compared to the corresponding west pilot. So, the west already gave the east substantial relative seniority improvements under the NIC as a result of binding arbitration. Now Cleary is proposing the west give the east pilots even more. The NIC is no windfall for the west, that's just a false propaganda campaign that seems to have worked quite effectively on those who are willfully ignorant of the facts.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Not sure who Jerry is, but feel free to keep guessing.

Perhaps you misunderstand what I wrote. Yielding more ground than what the NIC already gave "them" is a reference to what NIC gave the east not the west. The east got the top 517 WB super seniority positions and then 2/3 of the rest of the NB seniority slots for active pilots at the PID. Under the NIC every active east pilot gained relative seniority compared to the corresponding west pilot. So, the west already gave the east substantial relative seniority improvements under the NIC as a result of binding arbitration. Now Cleary is proposing the west give the east pilots even more. The NIC is no windfall for the west, that's just a false propaganda campaign that seems to have worked quite effectively on those who are willfully ignorant of the facts.

Okay then. You don't like the Nic and we don't like the Nic. Lets sit down and devise a better mousetrap.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Okay then. You don't like the Nic and we don't like the Nic. Lets sit down and devise a better mousetrap.

How? There is no West. The Addington class only exists for the COMPANY's case. I don't know if it was by design, or pure stupidity, or a combination of the two, but Bradford, $eham and Cleary created this legal reality that we now live. If you guys want off of LOA93, you have one option. It's up to you guys. We don't care.

 

[Harry Callahan]

Okay then. You don't like the Nic and we don't like the Nic. Lets sit down and devise a better mousetrap.

IMO if you all could figure out how to do that & stop hating each other this place might go some where. Just my o2.

 

[aquagreen73s]

IMO if you all could figure out how to do that & stop hating each other this place might go some where. Just my o2.

Hate has nothing to do with it, at least from the West hate has nothing to do with it.

 

[prechilill]

Okay then. You don't like the Nic and we don't like the Nic. Lets sit down and devise a better mousetrap.

Why do I need to do anything? Just because you have a problem do not think for a second that I care- I'm quite content with the legal process going forward. Besides, you cannot be trusted on anything. Let's just get this thing finished in the most concrete forum possible, our courts. Take care

 

[Black Swan]

I support the initiative to explore mediation, regardless of what Cleary's motives are for doing so. The present course reminds me of a movie I saw about a big boat, starring Leonardo DiCaprio.

I disagree with your last paragraph. If the BPR confers upon the west class special, extraordinary, one-time authority and autonomy to negotiate with the east, then all options are open, the whole spectrum, not just DOH with C&R's. That may be our side's opener, but they may open with staple the east.

This would have to be an open and honest effort, which means modify both the Nic as well as DOH from their present form.

The only way out of this mess to me, is longevity pay. Then anybody can take any seat they wish, in any aircraft without care for financial ramifications. The BA pilots with the most seniority fly the small jets domestically. It would shake out like that. The flight attendants with a lot of seniority often fly the 190 one day trips in PHL to be home at night.

 

[luvn737s]

To summarize Der Fuhrers manifesto:

Fellow Pilots,

WEASELS UNITE!!

Captain Mike Cleary
President

 

[CallawayGolf]

Okay then. You don't like the Nic and we don't like the Nic. Lets sit down and devise a better mousetrap.

I never said I didn't like the NIC; in fact I've stated multiple times that I believe the NIC is exceedingly fair to both pilot groups and that it's hard to imagine a better outcome for either side given the constraints and complexities the arbitration panel had to deal with. Protecting the top 517 makes perfect sense logically. The west had no WB flying at the time of the merger so it was fair to ensure that the east pilots already flying those AC could retain their positions post integration. That's not to say that the west wasn't harmed by this decision because all 1800 west pilots were moved down the list because of this. This loss to the west was fair IMO.

Likewise, all west NB pilots saw a diminished relative seniority position because of the top 517 and the 2/3 slotting used by NIC. This was a loss but it was also fair and it too makes perfect logical sense given the different sizes of the two groups that had to be integrated. Even though the west lost, the NIC still ensured that west captains could retain the seat position they had prior to the merger which is fair. The same is true for all east and west seat positions, everyone was able to retain what they had prior to the merger in terms of active flying.

The east furloughs being placed at the bottom was also fair to both groups. Integrating the furloughs into the active list would place an even greater degree of harm to the west pilots as holding their current seat would be a challenge with each furloughed east pilot that was integrated in. This would be a loss to the west, but unlike the previous actions noted above, this would not be fair.

So the NIC was exceedingly fair to the active east pilots giving them a higher relative seniority compared to the west and the west retained the ability to keep the same flying they had as well as to share in any growth or other seniority advancements at the same basic rate as an active east pilot because of the 2/3 slotting. The furloughs were treated fairly and consistently with what everyone should have expected. The only way the furloughs could advance under the integrated list was for positions to open up with no negative impact to the pilots actively flying at the PID. This too is fair. IMO of course.