US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Beancounter]

LOA 93 will not make a difference to me, its for the pilots that you and the rest of the west are trying to screw out of their rightful DOH positions. Remember you will soon be the lowest paid pilots in the industry. OH thats right your still out on the street looking for a LTRSP.

Rightful DOH positions? Stapling the west pilots is not your right. Lowest paid pilots? We have line holding captains(non check airman) making 160-180k a year with 17 days of a month, because of the duty, rig, and etc. in our contract. They are not suffering. Guys like me are the worst off, because reserve sucks. $86 an hour only works out to about $85k a year on reserve. We young ins will stay on reserve a long time, because of separate ops, but we are the minority and it's not that bad. It beats the alternative of combined ops and moving out east, because of PHX shrinkage. If your when you say soon to be lowest paid, you're talking about the LOA93 litigation, I wouldn't count you're prehistoric dinosaur eggs before they're hatched.

 

[Move2CLT]

Case management plan filed today. .


The company is NOT interested or believes the sides can "settle" (mediate) seniority.

17. The Prospects For Settlement.
(a) US Airways’ Position:
US Airways does not believe there is any prospect for successful settlement.

( b ) West Pilot Class’ Position:
There is no point to mediating enforcement of an arbitration award. If this
seniority dispute was not resolved by binding arbitration it surely is not going to be
resolved by non-binding mediation. Rather, there must be a definitive ruling from the
Court that USAPA cannot enter into any new CBA unless that contract incorporates the
Nicolau Award. Moreover, USAPA proposes a mediation where its hands would be tied
by a constitution that precludes any seniority scheme other than strict date-of-hire.

( c ) USAPA’s Position:
USAPA urges the Court to strongly encourage the parties to mediate the seniority
dispute underlying this case through the services of a mediator with a national reputation
(for example, George Mitchell or Abner Mikva). As the Ninth Circuit’s decision in
Addington suggests, an agreement among the interested parties is the only realistic way of
avoiding continued litigation. The interests of achieving a final resolution of the
underlying issues in this case and the interests of preserving judicial resources all favor a
good faith effort by all of the parties to reach agreement outside the judicial forum.
USAPA believes that a nationally recognized mediator is necessary and appropriate to
encourage all the parties to engage in the kind of open and realistic process necessary to
fashion such an agreement.

LMAO.

 

[Move2CLT]

Some more goodness:

The max ever is in 2019 and it is 337 total for both sides. The max the east retires in one year is 259 2018 and 2019. It averages around 20-25 per month total and the east never exceeds 22 per month. Of those 22 per month 24% are F/O's. That is in reference to the NAC's latest over 60 bid sheet. Currently there are a total of 544 over 60 east pilots. 131 are F/O's, 413 are captains.

Also looking at the east seniority list about 25% of their list is inactive. MED, LOA whatever. Looking at the lastest bid sheet. The east has 2396 active positions. 1120 captains and 1276 F/O's with the junior pilots seniority number being 3448. That is a difference of 1052 pilots. Even accounting for 200 management and check pilots not bidding. Still leaves 25% of the east list not active.

From 2012 to 2016 the next 5 years lists 787 east retirements. 787 east retirements divided by 60 months is only 13.1 per month for the east. Active 544 divided by 60 months is 9 active per month, a big difference from his projected 35 per month. Over the next 10 years total the east will average 17 per month retirements, 2040 east retirements. Remove the inactive and F/O's it is about 10 captains per month over the next 10 years.

Stand alone it will be 10 years for the junior east pilots to retire at the current attrition.

In other words almost 7 captains and 2 F/O's active per month not 35 per month. Active being important because a person not bidding does not move anyone up the list.

 

[Reed Richards]

Ok, back on topic.

Some useful info the east may want to continue ignoring. This is the exact same info Leonidas put out that was quickly debunked by USAPA. Apparently, USAPA did a bit of research and found Leonidas' numbers to be correct.

Imagine that.


Well, the NAC just published the Jan 2011 over-60 list. There are 542 total pilots over 60. 126 (23%) of those are FOs (141 or 26% if you include the E190 Captains which is really an FO position). That's 542 pilots who will not benefit from attrition, because they are the attrition.

So if I use your math (and it is late for me,) and the glass half full.......that is 401 Group II C/Os or higher that are over age 60 that I may benefit from their retiring over the next few years. Back of the napkin calculation of course, maybe a quarter of them are junior to me. EVERYONE below the 542 will at some time benefit from attrition always moving up, up, up from 190 F/O to C/O to Group II F/O and C/O and so on and on. Heck, a guy just over 60 still has 5 years of move up...despite what you say. And BIG movements into both seats on the wide bodies. That is an exciting prospect for my ever inflating ego.

Your 190 C/O dig is noted, but every one of them knows the a...hole C/O they are flying with every trip, without even looking at the paring data. And they don't have to even peek at West list for any reason. I bet you might have one or two guys on the street that might consider slumming it on the 190 to get medical for their family. And remember, were the company able to find some wiggle room on how many pilots the West staffs, it is already decreed they go at the BOTTOM of the East list until an actual merger, no matter what their hire date.

What crew base are you bidding on the next yearly bid? How are those arbitrated 190 and 757 slots working out for you? On at least one of those arbitrations you were offered better from the East MEC than you got in the award......an award you cannot even cash (I see a trend.)

Keep the number crunching going. My east attrition is what it is, not affected one iota by any West pilot.

Again, I take little ownership for your numbers or mine tonight. But I stand by my logic.

RR

 

[Beancounter]

Rightful DOH positions? Stapling the west pilots is not your right. Lowest paid pilots? We have line holding captains(non check airman) making 160-180k a year with 17 days of a month, because of the duty, rig, and etc. in our contract. They are not suffering. Guys like me are the worst off, because reserve sucks. $86 an hour only works out to about $85k a year on reserve. We young ins will stay on reserve a long time, because of separate ops, but we are the minority and it's not that bad. It beats the alternative of combined ops and moving out east, because of PHX shrinkage. If your when you say soon to be lowest paid, you're talking about the LOA93 litigation, I wouldn't count you're prehistoric dinosaur eggs before they're hatched.

Just realized that it might sound like I hope you don't win the LOA93 litigation. That is not the case.

 

[Reed Richards]

Case management plan filed today. .


The company is NOT interested or believes the sides can "settle" (mediate) seniority.

17. The Prospects For Settlement.
(a) US Airways’ Position:
US Airways does not believe there is any prospect for successful settlement.

( b ) West Pilot Class’ Position:
There is no point to mediating enforcement of an arbitration award. If this
seniority dispute was not resolved by binding arbitration it surely is not going to be
resolved by non-binding mediation. Rather, there must be a definitive ruling from the
Court that USAPA cannot enter into any new CBA unless that contract incorporates the
Nicolau Award. Moreover, USAPA proposes a mediation where its hands would be tied
by a constitution that precludes any seniority scheme other than strict date-of-hire.

( c ) USAPA’s Position:
USAPA urges the Court to strongly encourage the parties to mediate the seniority
dispute underlying this case through the services of a mediator with a national reputation
(for example, George Mitchell or Abner Mikva). As the Ninth Circuit’s decision in
Addington suggests, an agreement among the interested parties is the only realistic way of
avoiding continued litigation. The interests of achieving a final resolution of the
underlying issues in this case and the interests of preserving judicial resources all favor a
good faith effort by all of the parties to reach agreement outside the judicial forum.
USAPA believes that a nationally recognized mediator is necessary and appropriate to
encourage all the parties to engage in the kind of open and realistic process necessary to
fashion such an agreement.

LMAO.

So the Ninth in dicta already said Nic might not be the outcome. Judge Silver has the company saying the West says "no budge" and the East says lets get in bed and work it out.

Where do you think this will go, and if it goes the wrong way..how do you see the Ninth ruling in 2 or more years?

I won't predict what Silver will do. I predict the Ninth will rule USAPA is free to negotiate. Only one way I will be proven correct. Willing to wait.

RR

 

[aquagreen73s]

I won't predict what Silver will do. I predict the Ninth will rule USAPA is free to negotiate. Only one way I will be proven correct. Willing to wait.

RR

Once again you are (deliberately?) misreading the Ninth. Free to negotiate is vastly different from being free of consequences. The company's concern deals with the consequences of participating in a negotiation which is a DFR. Same substantive question but asked by a party clearly not bound by the Tashima's ripeness decision.

 

[Phoenix]

Once again you are (deliberately?) misreading the Ninth. Free to negotiate is vastly different from being free of consequences. The company's concern deals with the consequences of participating in a negotiation which is a DFR. Same substantive question but asked by a party clearly not bound by the Tashima's ripeness decision.

Wide range of reasonableness.

 

[A320 Driver]

Once again you are (deliberately?) misreading the Ninth. Free to negotiate is vastly different from being free of consequences. The company's concern deals with the consequences of participating in a negotiation which is a DFR. Same substantive question but asked by a party clearly not bound by the Tashima's ripeness decision.

All this makes nice window dressing, but the bottom line is, the West has no place to go but down and the East has no place to go but up (except the 517, for them it could get worse).

That being said, how would anyone think that a mediator would be able to dodge the bullet that USAPA cannot? Even if the mediator could find middle ground, there will certainly be at least one dissenter on one side or the other that will file a law suit and throw this thing back at the courts again.

This has the potential to go for many more years. Anyone that thinks there will be a win in the foreseeable future is kidding themselves.

There was a time when I thought middle ground could be found. That time has come and gone (IMO).

Driver B)

 

[nic4us]

Wide range of reasonableness.

Precludes usapa from using DOH.

 

[Injunction junction]

All this makes nice window dressing, but the bottom line is, the West has no place to go but down and the East has no place to go but up (except the 517, for them it could get worse).

That being said, how would anyone think that a mediator would be able to dodge the bullet that USAPA cannot? Even if the mediator could find middle ground, there will certainly be at least one dissenter on one side or the other that will file a law suit and throw this thing back at the courts again.

This has the potential to go for many more years. Anyone that thinks there will be a win in the foreseeable future is kidding themselves.

There was a time when I thought middle ground could be found. That time has come and gone (IMO).

Driver B)

Thats because this place is a damn joke and everyone outside of here is laughing saying dont do what they did. Its laughable to think the there is even the mention of a mediation when we've done that already and its results produced an arbitration. The award MUST be enforced or we just do away with the arbitration system all together and send each and every issue before the courts.

When I think of all the money wasted and management padding their pockets at my expense it boils the blood. The really sad part is there will NEVER be a time when the two groups can ever work together in the same cockpits now as the mutual hatred is so damn deep. It may be time for this place to liquidate.

Injunction

 

[luvthe9]

It may be time for this place to liquidate.

Injunction

Or just get rid of the dead wood, which would be our west operation. 😉

 

[UtterlyUdder]

deleted

Great post!!

 

[nic4us]

All this makes nice window dressing, but the bottom line is, the West has no place to go but down and the East has no place to go but up (except the 517, for them it could get worse).

That being said, how would anyone think that a mediator would be able to dodge the bullet that USAPA cannot? Even if the mediator could find middle ground, there will certainly be at least one dissenter on one side or the other that will file a law suit and throw this thing back at the courts again.

This has the potential to go for many more years. Anyone that thinks there will be a win in the foreseeable future is kidding themselves.

There was a time when I thought middle ground could be found. That time has come and gone (IMO).

Driver B)

Now there is a completely false assumption.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Rightful DOH positions? Stapling the west pilots is not your right.

Adhering to a consistent rational and well tested methodology, based on established reasoning (more experience generally equals better craftspeople--pilots) and applying it consistently is not considered "stapling" by any standard. The fact that one group has less experience and therefore is positioned in an initial lower seniority level in a merger is not "stapling".

We all know how A&W grossly over-hired, to the point that the "west" had to steal enough block hours from the east to boost their own block hours by 50% in order to keep from furloughing some 600 pilots. If any west list should have been used, it should have contained no more than 1200 pilots.

DOH will be the standard. It may take years. The pilots are DOH now, and will remain so, just like all the other employee groups at tempe.