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Wide range of reasonableness.
Precludes usapa from using DOH.
And highly likely anything but the Nic. If seniority is zero sum, how do you adjust seniority without taking from one and giving to another? It's impossible. The strength of the West case is having a comprehensive binding arbitration to submit as the first exhibit. That fact immediately raises the suspicion of why the union wants to not use it after all. Well, that's easy as heck to stoke that suspicion and prove to anyone, whether it's grandma on the jury or a judge, that the sole reason for changing the seniority list is because the majority doesn't like it. A320Driver says it above. That IS A DFR, and the company isn't going to do deal their way into a lawsuit.
 
Or just get rid of the dead wood, which would be our west operation. 😉
Remind us again how the east was doing before the west came along? Exactly which side was DEAD?

Tell you what. At the next crew news how about you ask Parker about the west operations and demand that we be split off you your "money making" enterprise. See what he says.
 
Remind us again how the east was doing before the west came along? Exactly which side was DEAD?

Tell you what. At the next crew news how about you ask Parker about the west operations and demand that we be split off you your "money making" enterprise. See what he says.
West CASM has more than doubled because of the East. You'd think that working at poverty wages on the East would translate to industry leading (low) CASM among the top five airlines, but no, it doesn't. This place only hangs on because of bag fees. Man I wish Judge Mitchell had gone the other way back in '05. The industry would have been much better off, especially the West.
 
Or just get rid of the dead wood, which would be our west operation. 😉

I know what you mean by that because when AWA BOUGHT AAA out of bankruptcy it all but ruined the west. The reality is it will either be merged as a whole or liquidated as a whole. No one in their right mind would EVER take just the east operation and inherit the worst employee group in the industry. Talk to the UAL folks and they will tell you first hand how the east seems to feel they are entitled to everything at expense of others.

Absent a merger this place goes away and that might just be what the industry needs. Rid the industry of the entitled east mentality and replace it with rational thinking aviators like those of the New DAL and UAL and this profession just might be restored to its once proud legacy. LCC east ruins the profession each day they are allow to breath the same air as the rest of us.

Injunction
 
And highly likely anything but the Nic. If seniority is zero sum, how do you adjust seniority without taking from one and giving to another? It's impossible. The strength of the West case is having a comprehensive binding arbitration to submit as the first exhibit. That fact immediately raises the suspicion of why the union wants to not use it after all. Well, that's easy as heck to stoke that suspicion and prove to anyone, whether it's grandma on the jury or a judge, that the sole reason for changing the seniority list is because the majority doesn't like it. A320Driver says it above. That IS A DFR, and the company isn't going to do deal their way into a lawsuit.

The "wide range of reasonableness" the SCOTUS quoted in O'neil relies on the fact that the union must reach that point from a position of "good faith".

Reneging on a binding arbitration to promote a majority at the direct peril of a minority is not in "good faith".

Seeham's seniority theft plan had major flaws. Most notably, the arbitration did not occur between the company and the pilots, it was between two pilot groups. Those two groups are still here, and usapa has no "good faith" argument to promote the east at the West expense, and strip the West of the arbitrated award.

Their lame arguement that a Nic inclusive contract would be unratifiable is untested, shortsighted, and barely defensible. Further, their DOH proposal is more detrimental to the West pilots that they have a DFR toward, than no new contract. So, no matter how you slice it, the east has elected a union constitutionally predisposed to fail in the DFR toward the West.
 
Adhering to a consistent rational and well tested methodology, based on established reasoning (more experience generally equals better craftspeople--pilots) and applying it consistently is not considered "stapling" by any standard. The fact that one group has less experience and therefore is positioned in an initial lower seniority level in a merger is not "stapling".

We all know how A&W grossly over-hired, to the point that the "west" had to steal enough block hours from the east to boost their own block hours by 50% in order to keep from furloughing some 600 pilots. If any west list should have been used, it should have contained no more than 1200 pilots.

DOH will be the standard. It may take years. The pilots are DOH now, and will remain so, just like all the other employee groups at tempe.

The only thing "we all know", is that the east pilotsw who voted for usapa are reneging scumbags, who should have been left out of the overhiring AWA did, when it bought your bankrupt airline.
 
Remind us again how the east was doing before the west came along? Exactly which side was DEAD?

Tell you what. At the next crew news how about you ask Parker about the west operations and demand that we be split off you your "money making" enterprise. See what he says.

You know they were the most profitable airline in the world. Pilots were making $1000 per hour and they were hiring 800 per month. They were taking delivery of new aircraft to the tune of 30 per day and not a soul was on furlough. They were planning on opening crew bases in every city in every state and pilots were leaving FED EX, UPS, UAL, SWA and all the other carriers that were in bankruptcy because the strong Usairways was putting them out of business. They applied the walmart business model to take over and dominate the worlds industry. Life was so good at usair prior to the BUYOUT that pilots bragged about working a Bos- Phl turn once a month and getting paid 100hr to do only that. BEEP, BEEP, BEEP,BEEP as the alarm goes off in the hotel room they awake to the reality of the situation of having the worst contract in the industry. They awake to the reality of being paid worst than Horizon air pilots and that all that great stuff was just a dream. Yup today they realize that they are still the worst in the industry but they are on a mission to make Doug Parker pay for it as they set out for the day with slow taxi speeds, three engines turning and fake maintenance write up's. Oops dozed off there again for a moment because the reality is INJUNCTION

Injunction
 
Adhering to a consistent rational and well tested methodology, based on established reasoning (more experience generally equals better craftspeople--pilots) and applying it consistently is not considered "stapling" by any standard.

I'm glad Southwest, Northwest, Delta, AirTran, Trump pilots and USAir pilots (and most likely CAL/ UAL pilots) agree with you...
Oh wait- none of those groups have used Date of Hire. :lol:

Guess you're on your own island there champ!
 
Reneging on a binding arbitration to promote a majority at the direct peril of a minority is not in "good faith".
No matter which way you slice it, that's the reality. It's inescapable. The company has been content with operating the airline on a BK contract for the East, sans illegal work action but that was taken care of for only a few million in legal fees. Now the company owns USAPA. USAPA is the company's ####. Yesterday's case management filing tells everyone which way the company is headed. A joint contract with the Nicolau will be here sooner than anyone thinks.
 
Despite the USAPA Constitution and By Laws and Failed Past Attempts, USAPA Seeks Another Shot at Mediation. But Who Can Trust Them?

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Update for November 23, 2011:

Quick Fact #206: Despite the USAPA Constitution and By Laws and Failed Past Attempts, USAPA Seeks Another Shot at Mediation. But Who Can Trust Them?

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And highly likely anything but the Nic. If seniority is zero sum, how do you adjust seniority without taking from one and giving to another? It's impossible. The strength of the West case is having a comprehensive binding arbitration to submit as the first exhibit. That fact immediately raises the suspicion of why the union wants to not use it after all. Well, that's easy as heck to stoke that suspicion and prove to anyone, whether it's grandma on the jury or a judge, that the sole reason for changing the seniority list is because the majority doesn't like it. A320Driver says it above. That IS A DFR, and the company isn't going to do deal their way into a lawsuit.

How wide is a wide range of reasonableness? Anything short of wholly irrational or arbitrary.


“[T]he final product of the bargaining process may constitute evidence of a breach of duty only if it can be fairly characterized as so far outside a ‘wide range of reasonableness,’ that it is wholly ‘irrational’ or ‘arbitrary.’ “
 
Leonidas Update: November 23, 2011

Dear former America West Pilots,

By now you have probably seen the USAPA President's message dated November 17th and entitled, “Our Seniority Dispute.” In this letter, Captain Cleary states:

“For these reasons, I have proposed to the Board of Pilot Representatives, and the BPR (with the Phoenix Representatives recusing themselves) has agreed, to direct our legal representatives in the Phoenix Declaratory Judgment to ask the Court to urge the parties -- the West Pilots and USAPA -- to enter into a process of mediation aimed at producing a mutually agreeable integrated seniority list.”

The response to this message from the pilots of Phoenix has already been a resounding, “NO!” If you are a former AWA pilot, there is no reason to expound on the many reasons why you feel this way. Also, please note there has been no rush on the part of Leonidas, LLC to respond to Mike Cleary's message. This is because we did not want to discourage the opinions of individual West pilots who might find Cleary's insincere “olive branch” of an offer even remotely appealing. At this point, I know of no former AWA pilot who would willingly choose to enter into the process Cleary outlines in his letter. As usual, there is more to the story than what Cleary communicated.

On Friday, October 14th, I received a personal call from Mike Cleary asking me to meet with him privately and in person. I said, “sure, but can I ask about the subject matter?” To this Mike replied that he would prefer to save that for our meeting, which I thought seemed reasonable enough. After all, there is certainly a wide array of topics about which Captain Cleary might wish to meet with me in person such as the RICO charges, the contrived “Identity Theft” allegations, trumped-up charges pending against me (and others) before the USAPA Appeal Board, additional West members for the NAC, or a possible merger with another carrier. The fact is that I just could not know the topic until he chose to disclose it to me in a face-to-face meeting. When I offered to travel to meet with him in Charlotte on the following Thursday, he said that would be later than he had hoped and that, instead, he could travel to Texas. We then decided to meet for lunch the following Tuesday morning.

On October 18th, I picked up Cleary curbside at DFW. We found an acceptable restaurant and proceeded to have a courteous and pleasant visit. We discussed a variety of topics- including sports and family- before the conversation turned to the primary reason for our meeting. In short, Captain Cleary asked whether or not we (“we,” as in the West pilot group) would be interested in voluntarily submitting to mediation to seek a seniority solution. I remained polite as I explained how (and why) I did not see this as a realistic option, and that how I, personally, would not be interested in participating. Nevertheless, I told Cleary that I would take his proffer of mediation to the Leonidas, LLC board and to the West pilots' attorneys to determine whether or not this would be a path that might interest the PHX pilots. In light of the extreme political risk I sensed Cleary was taking by even participating in a discussion of this nature, I avowed to him that I would not disclose the fact that we had met to anyone without an absolute need to know, and that if this information were to come to light, it would not be as a result of anyone on my team. Also, Cleary indicated that a timely decision about his offer would be helpful for everyone in getting to the end of our dispute. A quick answer was particularly necessary in light of the looming “Scheduling Conference” (then slated for December 1st), and the pressing need for USAPA to make related strategic decisions as well as determine which legal counsel would represent the association in these proceedings. I let him know that we would provide an answer as soon as possible.

Following our lunch, I then returned Cleary to the airport where he caught a flight back to Charlotte. I thanked him for his candor and for the pleasant lunch. It was soon thereafter that some of you saw Captain Cleary at DFW following our meeting (though nobody would have guessed that we had just met). News of Cleary being spotted at DFW almost immediately made its way onto the web boards, which seemed to stoke the AA merger rumors for a few days thereafter. No sooner than I had left DFW I began to make the necessary calls to discuss this offer with the Leonidas, LLC board, the West attorneys, and my fellow USAPA representatives from Phoenix.

After careful consideration and discussion with the West BPR reps, Leonidas, LLC board and our attorneys, we decided to reject Cleary's offer of mediation. On Friday, October 21st, I phoned Cleary to tell him that we had thoroughly debated the issue and that, for many reasons, we were going to “politely decline your offer.” In short, our response was, “thanks, but no thanks.” Obviously, and in light of Mike's recent letter, this message was received, but not comprehended. There had to be some rationale which drove Cleary to go through the trouble of traveling to Texas to ask me about mediation. He must have perceived me to be the leader of the former AWA pilots and as a figure with the authority to bind the West pilots in matters relating to the seniority dispute. However, based on his letter (and true to form), Cleary and his supporters are simply unable to accept “no,” (or anything else they do not want to hear) for an answer. Does this sound familiar? It ought to by now.

Nonetheless, and in spite of our response, the new lawyers for USAPA continued to press the West pilots (through our lawyers) to consider Mike's proposal. In addition, there were a couple of BPR meetings in the intervening weeks since our lunch date, and during each of these meetings, your PHX representatives made it crystal-clear to the BPR and officers that we could not, and would not accept an invitation to mediate. We stressed that doing so would only result in additional delay before getting a final ruling from the court in Phoenix, and, that even if forced to mediate, the West would yield nothing through the process. Every West pilot knows that we have positively nothing to give, and the East pilots have nothing to offer. The former AWA pilots almost unanimously feel that we cannot offer anything, and even if we could, we wouldn't. Since the moment we gave our decision to Cleary, the PHX representatives and I have taken every opportunity to inform the rest of the BPR that mediation would be a waste of time, effort, and money. At one recent BPR meeting our contingent even included Leonidas, LLC co-founder Jeff Koontz (standing in for David Braid) and, as always, Addington plaintiff Roger Velez. Everyone was well aware that they were hearing directly from people with influence in the matter. However, it is now clear that the remaining eight members of the BPR (since your PHX reps voluntarily recuse themselves from these decisions) have decided that they instead prefer to prolong the dispute, delay a contract, and continue to propagate the false hope of a seniority solution other than the Nicolau award by seeking to compel court-ordered mediation1 upon the West. These are the reasons I am now disclosing my heretofore “secret” meeting with Cleary.

It should be obvious just how hollow this offer to mediate really is. The evidence proves that this is nothing more than USAPA's last-ditch effort to make itself appear to be “the reasonable party” in Judge Silver's courtroom. It is a significant departure from the never-ending rhetoric in which USAPA has claimed total victory in its Date-of-Hire quest while promising its membership an imminent industry-standard contract with DOH. Why, now, the sudden urge to mediate? Contrast USAPA's reasonable-sounding offer to mediate with how, on the same day, USAPA published Cleary's “Our Seniority Dispute” message, the Negotiating Advisory Committee also published details of its “Comprehensive Proposal” which it presented to US Airways last week. Within the NAC's comprehensive proposal, you will find that the union's position on seniority remains its Date-of-Hire proposal from September 30th, 2008- that's right, the exact same proposal which the Addington jury found to violate USAPA's Duty of Fair Representation to the West pilots. USAPA's five-member, East-only Negotiating Advisory Committee2 did not even have the sense to place TBD (“to be determined”), or an asterisk, or a note in its proposal regarding seniority. This, is in spite of the fact that the company, NMB mediator, as well as the USAPA BPR and officers know that this is the exact subject of ongoing litigation and an imminent trial. Brilliant! How, by the way, is that mediation going for you, USAPA? Has it produced any tangible results after almost two years? The answer is a resounding “no,” so why would USAPA believe that mediating a seniority dispute that has already been negotiated, mediated, arbitrated and litigated now suddenly produce an acceptable result? The reason likely comes back to the fact that USAPA's leadership is simply unable to properly deal with the reality and facts which they find themselves facing.

This lingering dispute was unquestionably and exclusively created by the East pilots and their former legal counsel (Lee Seham) who rejected the Nicolau Award and then set about creating USAPA in order to avoid its implementation. Almost four years later, these same people now come to the West pilots attempting to have us fix the very problem they themselves created. In so doing they are asking the former AWA pilots to personally finance their “fix” through the dilution of the Nicolau Award, accept a concessionary contract in which only the East pilots gain, as well as asking us to validate all of the immoral steps they have taken to harm us along the way. Giving in now just because the East no longer feels confident as to the outcome of pending litigation would be akin to total capitulation. This would set an untenable precedent for generations to come. Again, the answer is, “no thanks!” We will never quit defending ourselves.

Let me be clear: The former AWA pilots may be intransigent, but we are not being unreasonable when we demand the results of Nicolau arbitration! We believe the Nicolau Award is BOTH fair and equitable, AND final and binding. We will not cease to assert our rights now just because that would be more convenient for USAPA.

As for me, and every AWA pilot I know, we will take our chances in court.

Please have a safe and excellent Thanksgiving holiday weekend.

Sincerely,

Eric Ferguson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. While the court can order us to enter into a process and attempt to mediate our dispute, it cannot impose a result of the process if the result it is not mutually agreed upon by all parties to the mediation. The distinction between mediation and arbitration is important and critical to note.

2. I will not expound upon the numerous attempts your PHX representatives have made, even recently, to have a proper number of PHX-based pilots placed on the NAC. All of these efforts have been rejected by the BPR and the President of the Association so far. All of this is overwhelming evidence of USAPA's bad-faith toward the former AWA pilots and will come before the judge when appropriate and necessary in seeking to avoid court-ordered mediation.
 
How wide is a wide range of reasonableness? Anything short of wholly irrational or arbitrary.


“[T]he final product of the bargaining process may constitute evidence of a breach of duty only if it can be fairly characterized as so far outside a ‘wide range of reasonableness,’ that it is wholly ‘irrational’ or ‘arbitrary.’ “
The question as it pertains to uSAPa is how wide is a wide range of reasonableness AFTER a binding arbitration?

Recorded history didn't start with the formation of uSAPa.
 
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