US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

What make the army think Silver wilL render a final decision "once and for all"
If the East looses its back to the 9th boys....COUNT ON It

nicdoa
npjb

Were you in the middle of a mild stroke when you typed your post?

 

[OTTER574]

That didn't answer his question OTTER.

so says the brat. Most senior pilots are more and happy to wait it out on the west...including me.

OTTER

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I don't think anyone doubts that. But I don't think Silver is dumb enough to stick her finger in the light socket of the DFR issue. I believe she'll rule based strictly on contract law and the company's rights/responsibilities laid out in the TA, which is pretty clear and which USAPA inherited. A combined seniority list was to be arrived at by a specified method and as long as it met the company's conditions it would be accepted. The combined list was constructed using the process specified, the company accepted it, and that all happened before USAPA was the CBA. Is Silver rules that the company has to use the combined list it officially said met the terms of the TA and thus has alrready accepted in accordance with the contract, what is USAPA going to claim? That it has a right to demand that the company violate the contract called the TA? That the company had it's fingers crossed behind it's back so didn't really accept the Nic? Nope, if Silver rules that the company has already legally accepted the Nic (which the 9th would likely affirm quickly), the company isn't going to agree to any other list.

Jim

The company should have told usapa the nic was it right off the bat. They had everything in your post to stand on, and usapa would have been bucking up against an 11 billion dollar a year corporation that is merely standing on a solid legal basis. They could have let usapa either get around that or beat it's brains in trying, but oh no....

 

[Reed Richards]

Do you want to know why this will be the FINAL decision? Because the rest of the world is getting tired of the east antics.

Ah yes. The much underused "tired of your antics" law. That should end this debacle.

"The court wants this done they have wasted too much time on you guys. The company is done with you guys they need to move on. This AA deal could be the final straw to stop playing games. Read the companies response to the court. The money people are getting sick of waiting for this BS to stop. This will end. What is it going to take for you guys to accept the inevitable? "

Coming up on 5 years now. When are you going to figure out nothing will be "accepted."

"Appeal all you want. When the company gets a decision they are going to go with that. They are not going to wait around for the ninth."

You got one right. The Company will indeed not wait for the Ninth..they will wait for SCOTUS. Then a vote by the membership, whatever the outcome.

RR

 

[Pi brat]

so says the brat. Most senior pilots are more and happy to wait it out on the west...including me.

OTTER

Bravo, Bravo...........great answer OTTER. Why is that so hard for you?

I perfectly willing to wait it out too.

 

[Pi brat]

I don't think anyone doubts that. But I don't think Silver is dumb enough to stick her finger in the light socket of the DFR issue. I believe she'll rule based strictly on contract law and the company's rights/responsibilities laid out in the TA, which is pretty clear and which USAPA inherited. A combined seniority list was to be arrived at by a specified method and as long as it met the company's conditions it would be accepted. The combined list was constructed using the process specified, the company accepted it, and that all happened before USAPA was the CBA. Is Silver rules that the company has to use the combined list it officially said met the terms of the TA and thus has alrready accepted in accordance with the contract, what is USAPA going to claim? That it has a right to demand that the company violate the contract called the TA? That the company had it's fingers crossed behind it's back so didn't really accept the Nic? Nope, if Silver rules that the company has already legally accepted the Nic (which the 9th would likely affirm quickly), the company isn't going to agree to any other list.

Jim

As usual a well laid out statement of your opinion.

I want to make sure I fully understand though. You are saying that you agree that USAPA will through the appeals, but not have a leg to stand on, right? If so, how does your opinion match up with the AOL update that this will be the end? How do YOU define the "end". The westies get testy when I ask them and go off on the normal foaming at the mouth rants. See cleardirect.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I'd normally say the end would be after the DJ and subsequent appeals are in, and we negotiate in ernest for a new contract, how ever many years that would entail. Now, with the AA bk in the cards, I'm not sure what to think. It could be wholly irrelevant, or it could result in any of a number of new twists, none of which can be predicted with any certainty in my opinion. I can sum it up with a definate 'who knows?'

 

[cleardirect]

Ah yes. The much underused "tired of your antics" law. That should end this debacle.

"The court wants this done they have wasted too much time on you guys. The company is done with you guys they need to move on. This AA deal could be the final straw to stop playing games. Read the companies response to the court. The money people are getting sick of waiting for this BS to stop. This will end. What is it going to take for you guys to accept the inevitable? "

Coming up on 5 years now. When are you going to figure out nothing will be "accepted."

"Appeal all you want. When the company gets a decision they are going to go with that. They are not going to wait around for the ninth."

You got one right. The Company will indeed not wait for the Ninth..they will wait for SCOTUS. Then a vote by the membership, whatever the outcome.

RR

RR would you agree that Parker and the company are all about money?

If so what do you think is the cheaper seniority list? The Nicolau that has no C&R and leaves both sides relative. Or the DOH list that would require massive C&R to balance.

If the company accepts the Nicolau there is no negotiations. If they use DOH and have to spend time and money figuring out and negotiating C&R.

If they use DOH and C&R there are going to have to spend money administering those C&R. Those C&R would restrict them in the next merger. Suppose the company agrees to DOH and a C&R that requires PHX to remain the same size like STL for AA. How much has that cost AA?

Which side has more top of scale pilots? Using DOH moves you old east guys up the scale.

With these guys it is about money. Figure out which method is cheaper and you have your answer.

 

[Pi brat]

I'd normally say the end would be after the DJ and subsequent appeals are in, and we negotiate in ernest for a new contract, how ever many years that would entail. Now, with the AA bk in the cards, I'm not sure what to think. It could be wholly irrelevant, or it could result in any of a number of new twists, none of which can be predicted with any certainty in my opinion. I can sum it up with a definate 'who knows?'

🙂

Never dull, huh? For some it will never end. Even after they retire they will be carrying a grudge and telling the world how they were screwed. My definition would be a joint, ratified contract with no credible DFR on the horizon. So I differ with the AOL update.

I agree with you about the company. I think they have been leaning this way all along and they just went down this road to reap a few(many?) more millions in contract savings. The guy arguing for them is not a company lawyer, he is an "expert". He surely told them how he felt about it before they filed the suit.

Anyway, I see no RESOLUTION and thus money in the check anytime soon. The company hasn't been shy about telling us that if didn't like their opinion that we could shove it, oops I mean grieve it.

 

[OTTER574]

Shhh.....EF said so and that is all that matters. Besides, I asked that question on the first and I rained on their parade and they got really snippy. 🙂

Oh, and EF is not Elmer Fudd. I think.

Piss in the wind brat all you want. Bring it to the 9th and suggest what?

That a company and a union must honor a CONTRACT?

What's next on the agenda for you union pilots out east?

OTTER

ps: the question was answered so stop the bullshit.

 

[Pi brat]

Piss in the wind brat all you want. Bring it to the 9th and suggest what?

That a company and a union must honor a CONTRACT?

What's next on the agenda for you union pilots out east?

OTTER

ps: the question was answered so stop the bullshit.

OTTER,

I w i l l t y p e s l o w l y, t r y t o u n d e r s t a n d. I'm not saying they will win. I have no idea about that. Some guys(on here and elsewhere) have indicated that USAPA will not legally be allowed to appeal. AOL's update said it would "be over" here. That's the issue.

You might think it's b.s., but it is b.s. that could take us a lot longer and have us spend a lot more money while there are storm clouds on the horizon.

The west pilots pissed in the wind with Doug over the DL. Saying he shouldn't have taken the offer the union gave him, which was what he was asking for! That kind of logic?

 

[Reed Richards]

I don't think anyone doubts that. But I don't think Silver is dumb enough to stick her finger in the light socket of the DFR issue. I believe she'll rule based strictly on contract law and the company's rights/responsibilities laid out in the TA, which is pretty clear and which USAPA inherited. A combined seniority list was to be arrived at by a specified method and as long as it met the company's conditions it would be accepted. The combined list was constructed using the process specified, the company accepted it, and that all happened before USAPA was the CBA. Is Silver rules that the company has to use the combined list it officially said met the terms of the TA and thus has alrready accepted in accordance with the contract, what is USAPA going to claim? That it has a right to demand that the company violate the contract called the TA? That the company had it's fingers crossed behind it's back so didn't really accept the Nic? Nope, if Silver rules that the company has already legally accepted the Nic (which the 9th would likely affirm quickly), the company isn't going to agree to any other list.

Jim

There is really little wrong with your post Jim, especially the parts about DFR, Silver's competence, and basic contract law.

But this is not simple contract law..if it was this would all be over. This is labor law, and perverted contorted RLA law at that.

The simple fact is under the RLA Courts don't tell unions HOW to bargain. Period. USAPA is free to bargain on any section of their contract, up to and even after ratification. The process never ends. In the case of seniority, once ratified I will agree it is near impossible to undo the knot (Empire/PI post ratification.) But we are not even at that juncture. No Section 22 has been ratified. The union is free to negotiate at will and face all the possible "painful" pitfalls of a real DFR.

I appreciate the fact you also believe Judge Silver's courtroom will not morph into a DFR. Never happen. Sure looked like that at the show on Thursday, but that was exactly that..show.

RR

 

[OTTER574]

OTTER,

I w i l l t y p e s l o w l y, t r y t o u n d e r s t a n d. I'm not saying they will win. I have no idea about that. Some guys(on here and elsewhere) have indicated that USAPA will not legally be allowed to appeal. AOL's update said it would "be over" here. That's the issue.

You might think it's b.s., but it is b.s. that could take us a lot longer and have us spend a lot more money while there are storm clouds on the horizon.

piiiiiiiiiiibrrrrrraaaattttt please understand that the company you and I work for stated they are against usapa's illegal scheme in front of a Federal Judge countless times and will not play along.

Is this slow enough for someone of your self made intelligence?

OTTER

 

[Res Judicata]

There is really little wrong with your post Jim, especially the parts about DFR, Silver's competence, and basic contract law.

But this is not simple contract law..if it was this would all be over. This is labor law, and perverted contorted RLA law at that.

The simple fact is under the RLA Courts don't tell unions HOW to bargain. Period. USAPA is free to bargain on any section of their contract, up to and even after ratification. The process never ends. In the case of seniority, once ratified I will agree it is near impossible to undo the knot (Empire/PI post ratification.) But we are not even at that juncture. No Section 22 has been ratified. The union is free to negotiate at will and face all the possible "painful" pitfalls of a real DFR.

I appreciate the fact you also believe Judge Silver's courtroom will not morph into a DFR. Never happen. Sure looked like that at the show on Thursday, but that was exactly that..show.

RR

Someday you all out East will understand what's happening...it's not today, but someday. Addington was all RLA because the company was released by Wake. Meaning contract law had no bearing in the Addington trial. Guess what? The 9th boned the company out of the nice clean little ending they had hoped for so the company was forced to enter the arena. That arena deals strictly with the TA,(contract) they signed. This is now strictly about contract law and NOT THE RLA. The Company bent oer backwards to lead Silver to the simplest conclusion yesterday. They want to be forced to use the Nic. Because anything else is extremely problematic as we on the West are locked and loaded to shoot them between the legal eyes if they screw with the Nic. Despite their best efforts, they have to honor their word.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

The simple fact is under the RLA Courts don't tell unions HOW to bargain. Period.

Except to bargain in BAD faith.