US Pilots Labor Discussion

[autofixer]

Pi... Seriously? How on God's green earth is relative seniority a staple. A senior captain before the merger, should be a senior captain after the merger. A junior first officer before the merger should be a junior first officer after the merger. The pie (pun intended) is proportionally larger and proportional (relative) seniority is in order. It appears that everybody, except the faithful, understand and believe in the concept, and I do not say that tongue-in-cheek. It is not just AOL, Every OAL pilot, the judicial system, the Congress, even my 11 yr old and his buds all seem to be telling you that relative seniority is appropriate. Respectfully, it may be that it is time for reconsideration and a paradigm shift, possibly even overdue?

Don't hold your breath your lordship.

 

[fifidriver]

Don't hold your breath your lordship.

You can just call me Captain.

 

[Barrister]

I would agree with you if the majority West voted for USAPA. The East screwed the West. End of story. What did the West actually DO to any East pilot during any of this? Nothing. The laundry list of illegal actions USAPA has tried to hit the West with are too many to number. USAPA still has NO INTENTION of fairly representing the West pilots. They're hiding that intention as well as they hid the "safety" slowdown. IOW, in plain sight. It's really simple. The East didn't get their way and had a melt down. I am OAL and I think the Nic. was completely fair but the only opinion that matters is the Arbitrators.

You seem like a reasonably intelligent guy. It must be pretty clear to you by now that USAPA sold you a bill of goods and that this scheme was NEVER going to work right? Do you understand now that Lee Seham was just a shyster lawyer that ripped you all off? You must know by now that Cleary is a total lunatic and is utterly incapable of rational thoughts and actions. Assuming you understand those points, how in the world do you think any of this was worth anything to the East? It's cost you a fortune and you've seen ZERO benefit. The West was placed in the position of defending itself against an angry mob. You won't find a single west pilot that thinks this has been worth it but what choice do they have? It's either give up their careers at gunpoint to an an organization that is little more than organized crime itself or fight. I'd fight too...I Donate to AOL so in a way, I guess I am.

Had the age 60 rule not changed hundreds would have moved up to their rightful places. That is still going to happen. We simplydon't believe your garbage about a max 2 year delay. The 55-60 year old bottom reserve here will be gone soon and NIC grossly misjudged our reaction to a BUNCH of old guys being placed junior to NEW HIRES when the new hires will be here 20 years after our old guys leave. The WEST did nothing but reap the benefits of all that the EAST gave up to keep this rat infested ship afloat. Think I am wrong?. Put out a 10-15 year fence phantom/practice bid to the Eastand see what percentage it passe. ....So much for trying to "steal what you got".....Parker WILL NOT grow this airline....so what exactly is it that you think the East steals with sep ops.
The height of arrogance in this whole fiasco was NIC who thought he would reward you/ penalyze the East with "career expectations" about as wortless criteria there is. U sucked no doubt about that. But until you ahow me a payroll deduction where you paid for this merger then the fight will go on. As far as being sold a bill of goods.....no one could have done any better that Cleary with what he hadto deal with. Always remember the final referendum will be our vote on a final contract with NIC. If you win you win if you don't you don't.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

I would agree with you if the majority West voted for USAPA. The East screwed the West. End of story. What did the West actually DO to any East pilot during any of this? Nothing. The laundry list of illegal actions USAPA has tried to hit the West with are too many to number. USAPA still has NO INTENTION of fairly representing the West pilots. They're hiding that intention as well as they hid the "safety" slowdown. IOW, in plain sight. It's really simple. The East didn't get their way and had a melt down. I am OAL and I think the Nic. was completely fair but the only opinion that matters is the Arbitrators.

You seem like a reasonably intelligent guy. It must be pretty clear to you by now that USAPA sold you a bill of goods and that this scheme was NEVER going to work right? Do you understand now that Lee Seham was just a shyster lawyer that ripped you all off? You must know by now that Cleary is a total lunatic and is utterly incapable of rational thoughts and actions. Assuming you understand those points, how in the world do you think any of this was worth anything to the East? It's cost you a fortune and you've seen ZERO benefit. The West was placed in the position of defending itself against an angry mob. You won't find a single west pilot that thinks this has been worth it but what choice do they have? It's either give up their careers at gunpoint to an an organization that is little more than organized crime itself or fight. I'd fight too...I Donate to AOL so in a way, I guess I am.

And by the way when these guys do start to retire the WEST could then hold wide body Capt using their DOH. Nothing has been stolen from you except what you could have had but for your own desire to cash the lottery ticket given to you by NIC.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

So it comes down to your opinion that it was not fair. Go to your grave believing that, I don't care. It will not change the outcome of this other than delaying the inevitable. Just know the process was followed and the rest of the world accepts that legal definition of fair.

Oh come on now. Are you saying that Nicolau had a grudge against the east pilots? There has never been any evidence that Nicolau did anything wrong. Besides. what possible reason would Nicolau have to have a grudge against east pilots? Are you guys so universally hated that everyone is against you? I thought you guys were the darlings of the airline industry and everyone loves you.

You should care you idiot....that's what we have been trying to tell ya. NIC will NOT be voted in. You are like the guy who fakes his own death but names himself as the beneficiary of his nsurance policy.....CAN"T COLLECT. But then I am arguinf with a new hire who wants to be senior to that 60 year old!!!!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Pi brat]

So it comes down to your opinion that it was not fair. Go to your grave believing that, I don't care. It will not change the outcome of this other than delaying the inevitable. Just know the process was followed and the rest of the world accepts that legal definition of fair.

Oh come on now. Are you saying that Nicolau had a grudge against the east pilots? There has never been any evidence that Nicolau did anything wrong. Besides. what possible reason would Nicolau have to have a grudge against east pilots? Are you guys so universally hated that everyone is against you? I thought you guys were the darlings of the airline industry and everyone loves you.

Good Lord, I dip my toe back in the cesspool just to thump ole uhaul in the head and look what I get.

Clear, your logic continues to astound me. Where did I say Nicolau had a grudge against the east? I used a what if to counter what I read as you premise that the policy was based on a system of fairness so the results must be fair. I bet everyone of your former teachers is bald from you causing them to pull their hair out.

Glad to know that we both agree that we don't give a rat's rear what the other thinks.

Oh, and I'm looking forward to your "entire world" data.

 

[Pi brat]

Pi... Seriously? How on God's green earth is relative seniority a staple. A senior captain before the merger, should be a senior captain after the merger. A junior first officer before the merger should be a junior first officer after the merger. The pie (pun intended) is proportionally larger and proportional (relative) seniority is in order. It appears that everybody, except the faithful, understand and believe in the concept, and I do not say that tongue-in-cheek. It is not just AOL, Every OAL pilot, the judicial system, the Congress, even my 11 yr old and his buds all seem to be telling you that relative seniority is appropriate. Respectfully, it may be that it is time for reconsideration and a paradigm shift, possibly even overdue?

Uh fifi, yes seriously. I thought you were a long time lurker? If so you should have seen this before. It's in the Nicolau Opinion and Award, available to you on cactuspilot.com. Try reading it sometime. From pg 13 and 14:

"America West's initial proposal differed dramatically from that of
US Airways. As previously indicated, its position, when first presented
in detail, was a series of ratios accompanied with a two year condition
and restriction reserving to US Airways pilots all Captain positions on
the 9 A330 aircraft flying international routes as of May 19, 2005. The
firat proposed ratio was not Captain to Captain. Instead, America West
added to its 855 Captains an additional 114 First Officers, who,
America West claimed, expected captaincies based on the 19 A320s on
firm order as of May 2005. That combined figure (969) was to be
integrated on a straight ratio basis with 1121 US Airways Captains, a
number derived from staffing assumptions based on what 'were 221 US
Airways aircraft as of February 2006. This ratio would be followed by an
integration of the remaining America West First Officers (925) with
1051 US Airways First Officers, also on a straight ratio basis. After the
reinsertion of those on extended medical leaves and those in nonflying
positions, this would put 2431 US Airways pilots on the bottom of
the list, 959 of whom were active pilots as of May 19, 2005 with the
remaining 1472 furloughees.


Now fifi I can't highlight for you since I'm stuck in mobile mode, so did you catch that 2431 US pilots on the bottom with 959 of them being ACTIVE as of the date the merger was announced!? How exactly was your offer relative position? For 959 ACTIVE east pilots it would have indeed been a staple. No wonder we couldn't agree.

The other problem with a straight relative position,or Nic's version of it, with a merger with US is that it doesn't look at attrition and the fact the the long term F/Os on the east would finally be looking at moving up on an east stand alone list. You talk about the pie, but the pie was not proportional bigger, by 2007 is was relatively smaller than the original ones were, and Nic gave bigger slices to the west. The last few year have shown that to be true, with the west shrinking less than the east(hulls since May 2005), but still having furloughed pilots while the east has recalled, upgraded an hired.

Lastly, if it appears to you that EVERYONE else agrees with you, you need to get out of PHX more often as I can assure you that is not the case.

I don't have a problem with relative position, I have a problem a applied by Nic.

 

[Res Judicata]

Had the age 60 rule not changed hundreds would have moved up to their rightful places. That is still going to happen. We simplydon't believe your garbage about a max 2 year delay.

The two year delay was determined by the specialist YOUR SIDE HIRED. Rick Salamat. He didn't pull that number out of his rear, he used factual data. Which wherein lies your problem, facts. You guys deal strictly in anger and emotion. It's gotten you absolutely nowhere but why should that matter?

 

[Pi brat]

Actually, if an arbitrator was unable to be "neutral" and failed to recuse him/her self from the proceeding, that would be valid grounds to have the arbitration voided in court.

Whether one side or the other thinks the standard of "fair" has been attained is irrelevant. Look at almost every seniority integration in airline history, one side always says it got screwed. This time that side is the east pilot group, and having a majority, the east has been able to throw a temporary tantrum, but the absolute bottom line is the Nic is not going away.....ever!

I am not trying to persuade your opinion of the award. You can fight it as long as you like, but know that the company will be out of bussiness or replaced by another before the Nic could be replaced as the only accepted system seniority list at LCC. Even if the company is replaced, say in an American merger, the arbitration between the east and West pilot groups will remain, and the future bargaining rep (APA) could not rearrange the order in which former east and West pilots appear on a new integrated list without fear of losing in court to the West pilot group.

ALPA had a suit challenging the award, but USAPA found one lawsuit it didn't want to follow. But just to be clear, that wasn't the point I was trying to make, it was the point cleardirect got out of my example.


As far as the Nic never going away you may be right, I don't know. It certainly isn't dead as a lot of east pilots have told me over the last year or so. I know where you stand, there in no reason to keep trying to convince me.

 

[Pi brat]

You can just call me Captain.

Really? It didn't take long for you real stripes to show, and not the one on your sleeve.

 

[Pi brat]

The two year delay was determined by the specialist YOUR SIDE HIRED. Rick Salamat. He didn't pull that number out of his rear, he used factual data. Which wherein lies your problem, facts. You guys deal strictly in anger and emotion. It's gotten you absolutely nowhere but why should that matter?

You know I've heard that but never read the actual report. Do you know where I can find it because I'd like to see his assumptions. With the bottom east A320 captain sitting beside a westie on the Nic that is in the bottom 18% or so of the west list, I'm thinking he might have been wrong.

 

[Res Judicata]

You know I've heard that but never read the actual report. Do you know where I can find it because I'd like to see his assumptions. With the bottom east A320 captain sitting beside a westie on the Nic that is in the bottom 18% or so of the west list, I'm thinking he might have been wrong.

Very few have seen the entire report because the East deep sixed it asap. Demand to see the report from your most transparent union. You paid for it so you sure as hell are entitled to see it. USAPA buried it early on and fought like hell to keep it out of Addington. I believe Wake kept it away from the Jury because it was irrelevant to the case really.

By now we all know how to interpret USAPAs behavior. If they buried a factual report regarding SLI...what do you think that means?

 

[luvn737s]

Union Brothers and Sisters

"Can you spare a dime?"

It has been almost 6 months since the terminations of 2 East First Officers for not completing their Distance Learning on time.  There’s no question that this Holiday Season for these pilots and their families is going to be trying. 
We are a labor union, and one of the core values of a union is to look after our own members. These pilots, who were caught up in a management/labor feud, need your help. It has been reported that over 100 pilots failed to complete their distance learning on time – yet only these 2 line pilots received termination for this relatively minor offense.

In the spirit of unionism, and the Holiday Season, we are asking our fellow pilots and union members to join us in helping our fellow 2 pilots and their families.

Donations through Pay Pal or with checks would be greatly appreciated.

Really!?? The same union that gleefully pursues Section 19s on it's own pilots uses the argument that "over 100 pilots failed to complete distance learning on time"?

What about the fact that ALL non-paying dues protesters were equally guilty of non-payment, yet the union picked and chose whom they set their sights on.

Sorry, the ATM IS CLOSED! They are adults and shouldn't have even needed the warning they got, but they decided to roll the dice with their jobs and lost. Just like the did with USAPA.

 

[cleardirect]

Uh fifi, yes seriously. I thought you were a long time lurker? If so you should have seen this before. It's in the Nicolau Opinion and Award, available to you on cactuspilot.com. Try reading it sometime. From pg 13 and 14:

"America West's initial proposal differed dramatically from that of
US Airways. As previously indicated, its position, when first presented
in detail, was a series of ratios accompanied with a two year condition
and restriction reserving to US Airways pilots all Captain positions on
the 9 A330 aircraft flying international routes as of May 19, 2005. The
firat proposed ratio was not Captain to Captain. Instead, America West
added to its 855 Captains an additional 114 First Officers, who,
America West claimed, expected captaincies based on the 19 A320s on
firm order as of May 2005. That combined figure (969) was to be
integrated on a straight ratio basis with 1121 US Airways Captains, a
number derived from staffing assumptions based on what 'were 221 US
Airways aircraft as of February 2006. This ratio would be followed by an
integration of the remaining America West First Officers (925) with
1051 US Airways First Officers, also on a straight ratio basis. After the
reinsertion of those on extended medical leaves and those in nonflying
positions, this would put 2431 US Airways pilots on the bottom of
the list, 959 of whom were active pilots as of May 19, 2005 with the
remaining 1472 furloughees.


Now fifi I can't highlight for you since I'm stuck in mobile mode, so did you catch that 2431 US pilots on the bottom with 959 of them being ACTIVE as of the date the merger was announced!? How exactly was your offer relative position? For 959 ACTIVE east pilots it would have indeed been a staple. No wonder we couldn't agree.

The other problem with a straight relative position,or Nic's version of it, with a merger with US is that it doesn't look at attrition and the fact the the long term F/Os on the east would finally be looking at moving up on an east stand alone list. You talk about the pie, but the pie was not proportional bigger, by 2007 is was relatively smaller than the original ones were, and Nic gave bigger slices to the west. The last few year have shown that to be true, with the west shrinking less than the east(hulls since May 2005), but still having furloughed pilots while the east has recalled, upgraded an hired.

Lastly, if it appears to you that EVERYONE else agrees with you, you need to get out of PHX more often as I can assure you that is not the case.

I don't have a problem with relative position, I have a problem a applied by Nic.

Well PI should the west be stomping our feet and screaming bloody murder because we did not get what we wanted??? You guys wanted DOH and backed up to LOS. Big deal 85% would have been the same thing. So when you did not get what you wanted you threw a hissy fit and cried like little girls. But when usapa came on property what did you guys do? DOH.

So who cares what we asked for we did not get it. The west manned up and accepted the result. How about you east pilots do the same. You did not get what you wanted. Man up and accept the answer.

 

[cleardirect]

Had the age 60 rule not changed hundreds would have moved up to their rightful places. That is still going to happen. We simplydon't believe your garbage about a max 2 year delay. The 55-60 year old bottom reserve here will be gone soon and NIC grossly misjudged our reaction to a BUNCH of old guys being placed junior to NEW HIRES when the new hires will be here 20 years after our old guys leave. The WEST did nothing but reap the benefits of all that the EAST gave up to keep this rat infested ship afloat. Think I am wrong?. Put out a 10-15 year fence phantom/practice bid to the Eastand see what percentage it passe. ....So much for trying to "steal what you got".....Parker WILL NOT grow this airline....so what exactly is it that you think the East steals with sep ops.
The height of arrogance in this whole fiasco was NIC who thought he would reward you/ penalyze the East with "career expectations" about as wortless criteria there is. U sucked no doubt about that. But until you ahow me a payroll deduction where you paid for this merger then the fight will go on. As far as being sold a bill of goods.....no one could have done any better that Cleary with what he hadto deal with. Always remember the final referendum will be our vote on a final contract with NIC. If you win you win if you don't you don't.

NICDOA
NPJB

How slow can one person be? We have told you over and over. It was your own guy that reported a max 2 years delay. Are you saying you don't believe what your own side tried to sell ALPA national? Did your side lie and make up data to support your crying to national? you guys paid for a report to support your case that the Nicolau was flawed asd the most you would fabricate was 2 years delay. If there was more don't you think he would have fudged the data to make it worse?