US Pilots Labor Discussion

[88 B.T.D.]

Found a link for Fodase.

Great minds .....

 

[Pi brat]

It appears to me that one of the biggest roadblocks to forward progress is the perception that "the Nic may be the only way out" is somehow inherently unfair or a necessary evil.

We are screwed then. Most of us will go to our graves believing that the Nic is, in part, fundamentally unfair.

But I disagree. Many thing in life are unfair and most people accept that when there is no way to change it, so when we get to that point I think the losing side will accept it begrudgingly. Then both sides can look back and see what an all in strategy cost us.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays everyone.

 

[Res Judicata]

We are screwed then. Most of us will go to our graves believing that the Nic is, in part, fundamentally unfair.

But I disagree. Many thing in life are unfair and most people accept that when there is no way to change it, so when we get to that point I think the losing side will accept it begrudgingly. Then both sides can look back and see what an all in strategy cost us.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays everyone.

DOH is going all in. If the West went all in you'd all would have been stapled. The only people that refuse to believe the nic award is a fair COMPROMISE is the East. You say "we're screwed" implying a future tense. Not true. You already screwed yourselves...past tense. There is no way recover the Billion dollars this stupid USAPA scheme has cost every one. If you think you're getting a penny of retro pay at some point you've completely lost your mind.

Happy Holidays to you as well.

 

[nic4us]

Intentional or not, stupid move or not, it was a homework assignment. I don't expect you to chip in and I believe the intended audience was east centric.

In my opinion, the most important job a union has is to defend its members against wrongful termination. Was it wrong that these two got terminated over such a minor offense as the "dog ate their homework"?...In my opinion YES.

As I said, this issue should have been a no brainer. usapa should have been able to make a deal for these two, and helped them retain their employment.

The point I am trying to make is...we all know the West has no representation and usapa has failed miserably in their DFR toward the West, but it also appears that usapa has no ability to safeguard and protect its EAST membership. So, usapa and the east now have to resort to something the West has been doing ever since the RICO suit was filed, that being ask for voluntary donations to support and defend against acts that should not have happened in the first place.

 

[Pi brat]

DOH is going all in. If the West went all in you'd all would have been stapled. The only people that refuse to believe the nic award is a fair COMPROMISE is the East. You say "we're screwed" implying a future tense. Not true. You already screwed yourselves...past tense. There is no way recover the Billion dollars this stupid USAPA scheme has cost every one. If you think you're getting a penny of retro pay at some point you've completely lost your mind.

Happy Holidays to you as well.

For many east pilots your offer to the arbitrator was a staple. There were two sides prior to arbitration and neither side offered enough to bring the other side off their position. After the Nic came out, both sides went all in, right or wrong.

You are wrong that the only people that believe the Nic is unfair(parts) are the east. Many of your pilots have pointed out that it is unfair to the top west pilots. Other airlines have told me that they think it was unfair. Fair is in the eye of the beholder and just because you think it is doesn't make is so. You guys need to accept that you will never convince most east pilots that it is fair, and it doesn't matter anyway.

The "we're screwed" was a reply to fifi, that if that was what it would take for this to get fixed it never will be fixed. I think it will get fixed without both sides agreeing that it was fair, it's just that one side will always be mad about it.

You've said we've(east) screwed ourselves. Guess what? You have too! You won't get your lost money back either. Your furloughed pilots won't get that time back. It's just that you think the cost has been worth it, right? Same for the majority of the east or we wouldn't be here.

We would all probably be better served if we stopped trying to convince the other side it was wrong and just wait for the courts final answer. What's a few more years?

 

[Metroyet]

The point I am trying to make is...we all know the West has no representation and usapa has failed miserably in their DFR toward the West, but it also appears that usapa has no ability to safeguard and protect its EAST membership. So, usapa and the east now have to resort to something the West has been doing ever since the RICO suit was filed, that being ask for voluntary donations to support and defend against acts that should not have happened in the first place.

Well Said! The two pilots that were dumb enough to listen to Mike Cleary's USAPA and Kubics misconceived illegal work action absolutely DESERVE everything they're getting. I would light a pile of cash on fire before sending it over as a donation to those gullible stooges. Every USAPA voter is getting precisely what they deserve.

 

[nic4us]

Until it is accepted that DOH with conditions and restriction is in fact within the SCOTUS standard of wide range of reasonableness, you won't see meaningful progress in bargaining between USAPA and the company.

Merry Christmas!

There will be no meaningful progress in bargaining between usapa and the company because of the very issue you bring up.

The wide range of reasonableness is predicated on it being derived without being arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith.

usapa's DOH with C&Rs fails all three standards. Therefore, it is outside a "wide range of reasonableness", and will be rebuked.

 

[Metroyet]

You've said we've(east) screwed ourselves. Guess what? You have too! You won't get your lost money back either. Your furloughed pilots won't get that time back. It's just that you think the cost has been worth it, right? Same for the majority of the east or we wouldn't be here.

I would agree with you if the majority West voted for USAPA. The East screwed the West. End of story. What did the West actually DO to any East pilot during any of this? Nothing. The laundry list of illegal actions USAPA has tried to hit the West with are too many to number. USAPA still has NO INTENTION of fairly representing the West pilots. They're hiding that intention as well as they hid the "safety" slowdown. IOW, in plain sight. It's really simple. The East didn't get their way and had a melt down. I am OAL and I think the Nic. was completely fair but the only opinion that matters is the Arbitrators.

You seem like a reasonably intelligent guy. It must be pretty clear to you by now that USAPA sold you a bill of goods and that this scheme was NEVER going to work right? Do you understand now that Lee Seham was just a shyster lawyer that ripped you all off? You must know by now that Cleary is a total lunatic and is utterly incapable of rational thoughts and actions. Assuming you understand those points, how in the world do you think any of this was worth anything to the East? It's cost you a fortune and you've seen ZERO benefit. The West was placed in the position of defending itself against an angry mob. You won't find a single west pilot that thinks this has been worth it but what choice do they have? It's either give up their careers at gunpoint to an an organization that is little more than organized crime itself or fight. I'd fight too...I Donate to AOL so in a way, I guess I am.

 

[cleardirect]

We are screwed then. Most of us will go to our graves believing that the Nic is, in part, fundamentally unfair.

But I disagree. Many thing in life are unfair and most people accept that when there is no way to change it, so when we get to that point I think the losing side will accept it begrudgingly. Then both sides can look back and see what an all in strategy cost us.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays everyone.

By what legal definition do you think the Nicolau is unfair? Unfair is simply your opinion.

According to A-M merger policy this is the definition of fair. You can whine about ALPA merger policy but under A-M nothing would have been different.

In addition, the Allegheny-Mohawk order required that seniority systems be integrated in a “fair
and equitable manner” and provided mediation and arbitration to resolve disputes over LPPs.
The LPPs, however, required that any adverse impact had to be the result of the merger. Further,
the “fair and equitable” standard was generally regarded to have been met if the procedure
(rather than the outcome) was fair.

No one can argue that the procedure was not fair. Negotiate/mediate/arbitrate. Each side was well funded, well represented. Each side decided our own strategy without interference. Each side got to choose the arbitrator. You don't like the outcome but that is not how fair is defined.

 

[Pi brat]

By what legal definition do you think the Nicolau is unfair? Unfair is simply your opinion.

According to A-M merger policy this is the definition of fair. You can whine about ALPA merger policy but under A-M nothing would have been different.



No one can argue that the procedure was not fair. Negotiate/mediate/arbitrate. Each side was well funded, well represented. Each side decided our own strategy without interference. Each side got to choose the arbitrator. You don't like the outcome but that is not how fair is defined.

"fair legal definition


adj
Neutral; balanced; just; reasonable."


I feel the Nic award falls outside of that definition. You don't. That's the nature of fair.

Yes, A-M was established to try and reach fair, so you can say the process was fair. But let's say we went through the process and it was again left to one arbitrator that had a grudge against AWA. Because of that one man's grudge, he stapled you to the bottom of the list. Would you then think a fair process had a fair outcome?

We are never going to agree on the Nic so why don't we stop arguing about it? It really doesn't matter what we think.

 

[Pi brat]

I would agree with you if the majority West voted for USAPA. The East screwed the West. End of story. What did the West actually DO to any East pilot during any of this? Nothing. The laundry list of illegal actions USAPA has tried to hit the West with are too many to number. USAPA still has NO INTENTION of fairly representing the West pilots. They're hiding that intention as well as they hid the "safety" slowdown. IOW, in plain sight. It's really simple. The East didn't get their way and had a melt down. I am OAL and I think the Nic. was completely fair but the only opinion that matters is the Arbitrators.

You seem like a reasonably intelligent guy. It must be pretty clear to you by now that USAPA sold you a bill of goods and that this scheme was NEVER going to work right? Do you understand now that Lee Seham was just a shyster lawyer that ripped you all off? You must know by now that Cleary is a total lunatic and is utterly incapable of rational thoughts and actions. Assuming you understand those points, how in the world do you think any of this was worth anything to the East? It's cost you a fortune and you've seen ZERO benefit. The West was placed in the position of defending itself against an angry mob. You won't find a single west pilot that thinks this has been worth it but what choice do they have? It's either give up their careers at gunpoint to an an organization that is little more than organized crime itself or fight. I'd fight too...I Donate to AOL so in a way, I guess I am.

I didn't buy the goods USAPA was selling. I voted for ALPA, but when USAPA was legally elected I thought it was my duty to join and try to work from within. Things have gone pretty much as I thought they would. But that doesn't mean that I think the Nic was fair.

The west didn't do anything to the east at first, they just went along with the process. After USAPA was elected some did fight against it in an inappropriate manner, even if they thought it was just to defend themselves.

My point is that we should have never been here. Whether the Nic was fair or not, it was not going to be accepted, at least at that point, unaltered. I think we could have come up with a solution that didn't lead us to where we are today, but we didn't so here we are.

 

[cleardirect]

"fair legal definition


adj
Neutral; balanced; just; reasonable."


I feel the Nic award falls outside of that definition. You don't. That's the nature of fair.

Yes, A-M was established to try and reach fair, so you can say the process was fair. But let's say we went through the process and it was again left to one arbitrator that had a grudge against AWA. Because of that one man's grudge, he stapled you to the bottom of the list. Would you then think a fair process had a fair outcome?

We are never going to agree on the Nic so why don't we stop arguing about it? It really doesn't matter what we think.

So it comes down to your opinion that it was not fair. Go to your grave believing that, I don't care. It will not change the outcome of this other than delaying the inevitable. Just know the process was followed and the rest of the world accepts that legal definition of fair.

Oh come on now. Are you saying that Nicolau had a grudge against the east pilots? There has never been any evidence that Nicolau did anything wrong. Besides. what possible reason would Nicolau have to have a grudge against east pilots? Are you guys so universally hated that everyone is against you? I thought you guys were the darlings of the airline industry and everyone loves you.

 

[nic4us]

"fair legal definition


adj
Neutral; balanced; just; reasonable."


I feel the Nic award falls outside of that definition. You don't. That's the nature of fair.

Yes, A-M was established to try and reach fair, so you can say the process was fair. But let's say we went through the process and it was again left to one arbitrator that had a grudge against AWA. Because of that one man's grudge, he stapled you to the bottom of the list. Would you then think a fair process had a fair outcome?

We are never going to agree on the Nic so why don't we stop arguing about it? It really doesn't matter what we think.

Actually, if an arbitrator was unable to be "neutral" and failed to recuse him/her self from the proceeding, that would be valid grounds to have the arbitration voided in court.

Whether one side or the other thinks the standard of "fair" has been attained is irrelevant. Look at almost every seniority integration in airline history, one side always says it got screwed. This time that side is the east pilot group, and having a majority, the east has been able to throw a temporary tantrum, but the absolute bottom line is the Nic is not going away.....ever!

I am not trying to persuade your opinion of the award. You can fight it as long as you like, but know that the company will be out of bussiness or replaced by another before the Nic could be replaced as the only accepted system seniority list at LCC. Even if the company is replaced, say in an American merger, the arbitration between the east and West pilot groups will remain, and the future bargaining rep (APA) could not rearrange the order in which former east and West pilots appear on a new integrated list without fear of losing in court to the West pilot group.

 

[fifidriver]

For many east pilots your offer to the arbitrator was a staple. There were two sides prior to arbitration and neither side offered enough to bring the other side off their position. After the Nic came out, both sides went all in, right or wrong.

You are wrong that the only people that believe the Nic is unfair(parts) are the east. Many of your pilots have pointed out that it is unfair to the top west pilots. Other airlines have told me that they think it was unfair. Fair is in the eye of the beholder and just because you think it is doesn't make is so. You guys need to accept that you will never convince most east pilots that it is fair, and it doesn't matter anyway.

The "we're screwed" was a reply to fifi, that if that was what it would take for this to get fixed it never will be fixed. I think it will get fixed without both sides agreeing that it was fair, it's just that one side will always be mad about it.

You've said we've(east) screwed ourselves. Guess what? You have too! You won't get your lost money back either. Your furloughed pilots won't get that time back. It's just that you think the cost has been worth it, right? Same for the majority of the east or we wouldn't be here.

We would all probably be better served if we stopped trying to convince the other side it was wrong and just wait for the courts final answer. What's a few more years?

Pi... Seriously? How on God's green earth is relative seniority a staple. A senior captain before the merger, should be a senior captain after the merger. A junior first officer before the merger should be a junior first officer after the merger. The pie (pun intended) is proportionally larger and proportional (relative) seniority is in order. It appears that everybody, except the faithful, understand and believe in the concept, and I do not say that tongue-in-cheek. It is not just AOL, Every OAL pilot, the judicial system, the Congress, even my 11 yr old and his buds all seem to be telling you that relative seniority is appropriate. Respectfully, it may be that it is time for reconsideration and a paradigm shift, possibly even overdue?

 

[fifidriver]

I would agree with you if the majority West voted for USAPA. The East screwed the West. End of story. What did the West actually DO to any East pilot during any of this? Nothing. The laundry list of illegal actions USAPA has tried to hit the West with are too many to number. USAPA still has NO INTENTION of fairly representing the West pilots. They're hiding that intention as well as they hid the "safety" slowdown. IOW, in plain sight. It's really simple. The East didn't get their way and had a melt down. I am OAL and I think the Nic. was completely fair but the only opinion that matters is the Arbitrators.

You seem like a reasonably intelligent guy. It must be pretty clear to you by now that USAPA sold you a bill of goods and that this scheme was NEVER going to work right? Do you understand now that Lee Seham was just a shyster lawyer that ripped you all off? You must know by now that Cleary is a total lunatic and is utterly incapable of rational thoughts and actions. Assuming you understand those points, how in the world do you think any of this was worth anything to the East? It's cost you a fortune and you've seen ZERO benefit. The West was placed in the position of defending itself against an angry mob. You won't find a single west pilot that thinks this has been worth it but what choice do they have? It's either give up their careers at gunpoint to an an organization that is little more than organized crime itself or fight. I'd fight too...I Donate to AOL so in a way, I guess I am.

Spot on! I could not have said it better. Thank you for your support. You are absolutely right, it was most definitely not worth it, but what choice did we and do we have? Thank you again for your help both financially and ideologically.