US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvn737s]

Why didn't the CLT reps distill it's moonshine to simply, "It's OK when we're the bullies". Are they really that naive to how politics works? I mean in the developed world.

I guess they do need a communications person, or at least an editor.

 

[nic4us]

Wrong idiot boy....the 9th knew exactly what this was about ...read the statement of facts before the ruling. They told you it was not part of a CBA yet. Come back later. Are you that dumb.

NICDOA
NPJB

Idiot boy??? Man that realy hurt coming from a usapa supporter.

I guess I am about as dumb as the other two federal judges who realized usapa is nothing more than a scab union trying its best to steal something that is not theirs.

So, the 9th gave free reign to a union to violate its DFR as long as it never codifies that DFR into a CBA? Hardly.

 

[fifidriver]

Wrong idiot boy....the 9th knew exactly what this was about ...read the statement of facts before the ruling. They told you it was not part of a CBA yet. Come back later. Are you that dumb.

NICDOA
NPJB

Sir:
Would it be possible to rephrase that without the insults. It would make your post more credible, albeit possibly less therapeutic for yourself. Thanks. Happy Holidays!

 

[nevergiveup]

Just exactly when did they warn the west it wouldn't happen?

Was it in the fantasy world of yours? That doesn't count you know.

read it.

 

[nic4us]

They (9th) knew that once a DOH list ratified the DFR would be unquestionably ripe. Now it's only questionably ripe. Silver will answer some of the questions in her decision.

The proffering of a DOH list may not be the litmus test for a DFR against USAPA, since real damages are distinctly different from the intent to damage. There are plenty of other examples where USAPA has chosen sides. Even the recent CLT update and it's references to Leonidas (which include MIGS) as opponents could be used to buttress the argument that USAPA has chosen winners and losers.

Removing DOH from the C&BL's would deflate some of the support for a DFR claim, should USAPA ever have the foresight to recognize it's liability to crushing monetary damages from behavior completely irrespective of Addington's suit. History says they will ignore it at their own peril.

When the intent to damage causes quantifiable harm, as it has done in this case, there should be no question that the case is indeed ripe.

When a union forgoes its primary responsibility of negotiating for the membership, there should be no question that a DFR is "unquestionably ripe".

usapa is not negotiating for the membership, or even the class. usapa is using majority status to do just the opposite, and so has failed in their DFR.

Who knows, maybe Silver will agree with me, but what good does that do when the 9th put out an incredibly shortsighted, politically motivated ruling telling usapa to go ahead and fail in their DFR, just don't ever get to a ratified contract.

 

[Pi brat]

Stop with the drama. East pilots moved up relative seniority because of the 517 being placed at the top. For the most part, everyone kept what they brought to the merger with a slight advantage going East.

That may have been true on the day the Nic came out, but not today, and the cross over point came very soon after the Nic came out. I'm looking at the numbers of a friend right now. If the Nic was in place he would be 5% pts lower on it than he is on the east list. He is a 320 captain while the west guy right above him on the Nic is in the bottom 20% of the entire west list, including the furloughed guys. Looking at a certain west USAPA rep, and he would be 6% pts better on the Nic than he is on the stand alone west list.

 

[Pi brat]

Which would you honestly prefer? Status quo LOA93, or a nic inclusive industry standard contract? What if it has been made abundantly clear to all concerned parties, (via Federal Court) that the nic is cast in stone. What do you prefer then?

Honestly I'd have to look at it and do the math. It's been so long now that I don't know what that would mean, and there really is not "industry standard". If you are just talking about pay rates, then I'd probably stick with what we have as I think we would have to give a lot to get them. If we got the best of you contract, and the best of ours and Dl rates, then it would probably make sense to accept the Nic and move on. If it means Dl rates and a loss of min fleet and other scope, nope I'll keep what I have. Thing is, we are not in position to get that. We have played right into the company's hands and I don't see us getting that. That would make us industry equal or maybe even leading with scope, and Doug won't do that, and with 5 or 6 different factions fighting each other we don't have the leverage. If we had a completed industry standard contract in place just waiting on a vote this would be done. There are enough east pilots that would join the west in voting for it. That's the problem, the alternative to continuing the fight is a bit fuzzy.

I don't know that the Nic is set in stone, we are about to see. I don't see the current leadership being able to pull that off and successfully fending off the resulting DFR.

 

[prechilill]

That may have been true on the day the Nic came out, but not today, and the cross over point came very soon after the Nic came out. I'm looking at the numbers of a friend right now. If the Nic was in place he would be 5% pts lower on it than he is on the east list. He is a 320 captain while the west guy right above him on the Nic is in the bottom 20% of the entire west list, including the furloughed guys. Looking at a certain west USAPA rep, and he would be 6% pts better on the Nic than he is on the stand alone west list.

That's because of the 500 new pilots Parker added to your seniority list following 2005 to meet the growth he sent your way. I'm surprised you are actually acknowledging it, really, I am.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If the Nic was in place he would be 5% pts lower on it than he is on the east list.

But would he be lower percentage-wise on the combined list today than the east list today? Considering the retirements (almost a year's worth before the age change plus some since) and long-term disabilities net of returns since the Nic came out, your friend would have probably moved up 5% on the Nic list too. You can't take a pilot's position on the east list today and compare it to the Nic list which used 1/1/2007 lists.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Or alternatively, you could put an industry standard contract (with the Nic) to a vote. Wake up! The game has changed and has long since passed you by.

How do we get to that point with groups fighting each other at every turn? Above post.

 

[Pi brat]

But would he be lower percentage-wise on the combined list today than the east list today? Considering the retirements (almost a year's worth before the age change plus some since) and long-term disabilities net of returns since the Nic came out, your friend would have probably moved up 5% on the Nic list too. You can't take a pilot's position on the east list today and compare it to the Nic list which used 1/1/2007 lists.

Jim

It's from an excel spreadsheet taking into account retirements and it runs out until his retirement.I received about a year ago and I actually think the gap is bigger with more east early outs, terminations etc. His west counterpart on the Nic is no where near a captain.

 

[Pi brat]

That's because of the 500 new pilots Parker added to your seniority list following 2005 to meet the growth he sent your way. I'm surprised you are actually acknowledging it, really, I am.

Think about that for a minute then get back to me with your correction.

 

[CallawayGolf]

That may have been true on the day the Nic came out, but not today, and the cross over point came very soon after the Nic came out. I'm looking at the numbers of a friend right now. If the Nic was in place he would be 5% pts lower on it than he is on the east list. He is a 320 captain while the west guy right above him on the Nic is in the bottom 20% of the entire west list, including the furloughed guys. Looking at a certain west USAPA rep, and he would be 6% pts better on the Nic than he is on the stand alone west list.

Of course the merger took place in 2005 and the SLI process concluded in 2007. So none of this has any relevance to the legal questions that being considered. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems all parties involved agree that the only avenue to a resolution is through the court system. So taking a 2011/2012 snapshot is quite meaningless to actually bringing this to a final conclusion.

Still, I'm curious about the points you brought up. If the NIC integrated the east and west lists using a ratio as has been described here over and over again, how does a seniority gap grow larger between two people on the new list? If a west guy has number 4,001 and an east guy has number 4,000 on the NIC list, then how is it that the guy who used to be 4,000 then becomes number 4,250 while the guy who was number 4,001 gains to become number 3,700? Please explain these variances. It seems to me that the guy who was number 4001 would, in time, become number 3,700 and the guy who was number 4,000 would become number 3,699 assuming nothing changed their ability to hold their position and there were roughly 300 active vacancies that were created via attrition between number 1 and number 4,000. I'm just using simple mathematics here so please provide some commentary on how the gap widens to the worse for an east pilot but conversely widens to favor a west pilot.

 

[Phoenix]

I don't have it in front of me , so I have to paraphrase.

The 9th mentioned that it is "speculative whether the West's prefered method could be ratified in a joint contract".

This statement was the centerpiece of my reasoning as to why the 9th ruled incorrectly. It showed a lack of understanding of just what it was they were being asked to rule on. The Nic is not the West's "prefered" method, the Nic is the result of a binding arbitration entered into by two pilot groups now represented by usapa. The West's prefered method was advanced to the arbitrator who chose an alternate method based on the merits of the case.

Addington was about a unions DFR to the class it represents. usapa fails that DFR. Regardless of whether the Nic is ratified into a contract, the mere fact that the union refuses to uphold and actively seeks to disregard an arbitration that took place amongst its membership, for the sole purpose of advancing one group at the expense of the other is a ripe DFR, right now.

The fact that the company had to file the DJ case is proof the 9th got it wrong.

...and a lot of folks have the opinion that the SCOTUS stole the election from Al Gore.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Noted. I predict that this time next year we will be in the same place we are today. We'll see.

Me? I expect to see those oldER farts retiring again this time next year. Maybe we can get some of the seat progression back for those who have waited with great patience and much sacrifice.