US Pilots Labor Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

...and a lot of folks have the opinion that the SCOTUS stole the election from Al Gore.

It's a good thing this country isn't run by opinion then. There are laws that people have to abide by despite their proclivity to treat the law as if it were gum on the bottom of their shoe when it doesn't convenience them. In that case there was no ambiguity; federal and state election laws require an election to be certified by a predetermined date so that the nation can go on about its business without endless recounts. The whole dangling chad fiasco was illegal in its own right. Either a ballot is unspoiled and runs through the machines or it is invalid and cannot be counted. Starring at a punch ballot and trying to determine a voter's intent by what is partially punched is not a valid or legal method of counting votes. The same holds true for all of the uncounted military votes from overseas. If they weren't returned by the predetermined deadline, then they could not be counted regardless of which candidate for president may have benefited the most by their inclusion. One violation favored one candidate and the other violation would have favored the other. The Supremes certainly don't get much right these days (the last century or so), but they were certainly correct on that particular case. I guess we'll never know if Gore could have achieved the status of being the worst President in comparison to Bush and Obama. That would be hard to achieve, but something tells me Gore would have made a valiant effort to be the most disastrous head of the executive branch in history. Poor Jimmy Carter; he was only a few dangling chads away from ditching that mantle he still wears to this day.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I vote we change the name to this thread.


It should be called "The Electrolux Thread" as all that's here is 3814 pages of "You Suck"

And maybe self-appointed expert busybodies should consider changing their screen names to HOOVER for similar reasons?

 

[Phoenix]

It's a good thing this country isn't run by opinion then. There are laws that people have to abide by despite their proclivity to treat the law as if it were gum on the bottom of their shoe when it doesn't convenience them. In that case there was no ambiguity; federal and state election laws require an election to be certified by a predetermined date so that the nation can go on about its business without endless recounts. The whole dangling chad fiasco was illegal in its own right. Either a ballot is unspoiled and runs through the machines or it is invalid and cannot be counted. Starring at a punch ballot and trying to determine a voter's intent by what is partially punched is not a valid or legal method of counting votes. The same holds true for all of the uncounted military votes from overseas. If they weren't returned by the predetermined deadline, then they could not be counted regardless of which candidate for president may have benefited the most by their inclusion. One violation favored one candidate and the other violation would have favored the other. The Supremes certainly don't get much right these days (the last century or so), but they were certainly correct on that particular case. I guess we'll never know if Gore could have achieved the status of being the worst President in comparison to Bush and Obama. That would be hard to achieve, but something tells me Gore would have made a valiant effort to be the most disastrous head of the executive branch in history. Poor Jimmy Carter; he was only a few dangling chads away from ditching that mantle he still wears to this day.

Somewhere there is a Wikipedia page missing an author.

 

[Move2CLT]

read it.

What? The " speculation" part?

That's all it is. You guys will vote yes for the money.

No speculation there boo boo.

 

[Pi brat]

Of course the merger took place in 2005 and the SLI process concluded in 2007. So none of this has any relevance to the legal questions that being considered. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems all parties involved agree that the only avenue to a resolution is through the court system. So taking a 2011/2012 snapshot is quite meaningless to actually bringing this to a final conclusion.

Still, I'm curious about the points you brought up. If the NIC integrated the east and west lists using a ratio as has been described here over and over again, how does a seniority gap grow larger between two people on the new list? If a west guy has number 4,001 and an east guy has number 4,000 on the NIC list, then how is it that the guy who used to be 4,000 then becomes number 4,250 while the guy who was number 4,001 gains to become number 3,700? Please explain these variances. It seems to me that the guy who was number 4001 would, in time, become number 3,700 and the guy who was number 4,000 would become number 3,699 assuming nothing changed their ability to hold their position and there were roughly 300 active vacancies that were created via attrition between number 1 and number 4,000. I'm just using simple mathematics here so please provide some commentary on how the gap widens to the worse for an east pilot but conversely widens to favor a west pilot.

It doesn't change on the Nic list, it changes vs what it would have been on the original pilots list. I think you know that. It was addressing aqua's point, nothing more.

Now you guys say the Nic is fair and that without it the east would have no jobs, or move up in relative position. Is that why you don't see the gain in relative position going forward on the Nic vs. west stand alone as a windfall? A better relative position at a larger airline with more bidding opportunities.

 

[jetjok1]

Sir:
Would it be possible to rephrase that without the insults. It would make your post more credible, albeit possibly less therapeutic for yourself. Thanks. Happy Holidays!

I agree!!!! At least be civil and not name call. Name calling is hurtful and just plain wrong. I does go both ways (sides) though. Happy Holidays!!!

 

[fodase]

It doesn't change on the Nic list, it changes vs what it would have been on the original pilots list. I think you know that. It was addressing aqua's point, nothing more.

Now you guys say the Nic is fair and that without it the east would have no jobs, or move up in relative position. Is that why you don't see the gain in relative position going forward on the Nic vs. west stand alone as a windfall? A better relative position at a larger airline with more bidding opportunities.

Lol, I would love for you to make this argument in court. You eastholes are simply amazing at twisting every single fact to suit your nefarious needs. The west has fo's that were captains before the merger and furloughs when there were none before the merger, I wonder how that is possible? Oh yeah and these furloughs and downgrades happen in 2008, a full 3 years post merger. So now you along with usapa want a "do over" based on todays circumstances, which just happen to be caused by the east's own actions, brilliant.

 

[CallawayGolf]

It doesn't change on the Nic list, it changes vs what it would have been on the original pilots list. I think you know that. It was addressing aqua's point, nothing more.

Now you guys say the Nic is fair and that without it the east would have no jobs, or move up in relative position. Is that why you don't see the gain in relative position going forward on the Nic vs. west stand alone as a windfall? A better relative position at a larger airline with more bidding opportunities.

Do you plan to run these what if scenarios out once the NIC is agreed to in section 22 and after a JCBA ratified or is this just provide a diversion away from the legal proceedings which will liven up again in a few weeks? Will you be back in 20 years to tell us all where you would have been had the NIC not been implemented and you could have retained separate ops forever?

It must be nice to play the what if games when you get to take full advantage of the financial health benefits that came to the east route infrastructure subsequent to the merger without having to give up any of the sacrifices of being merged in with the other pilot group. The mechanisms that produced an exit from bankruptcy also came with a requirement to follow an SLI process and to complete the integration of the two pilot groups. Seems to me you want all the benefits of the merger process and none of the downsides that were required for the transaction to occur in the first place. Do you seriously not see any ethical dilemmas to pursuing this approach?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Me? I expect to see those oldER farts retiring again this time next year. Maybe we can get some of the seat progression back for those who have waited with great patience and much sacrifice.

I don't think anyone would disagree that the FOs back east of the late 80s vintage fit that description. Despite some of the drama around here(I wish it could have happened under different circumstances), I realize those folks have been hit extremely hard over the years and don't begrudge them some progression, and feel glad for them. We have some guys out west that have been cut off at the knees through no fault of their own in recent years to, so in another year I look forward to a little progression out west as well.

 

[Pi brat]

Lol, I would love for you to make this argument in court. You eastholes are simply amazing at twisting every single fact to suit your nefarious needs. The west has fo's that were captains before the merger and furloughs when there were none before the merger, I wonder how that is possible? Oh yeah and these furloughs and downgrades happen in 2008, a full 3 years post merger. So now you along with usapa want a "do over" based on todays circumstances, which just happen to be caused by the east's own actions, brilliant.

There is no twisting, it's just the facts. You look at the facts differently than I do. That happens a lot, and it's why we don't all vote the same way in elections.

You wonder how it is possible? Really? It's possible because we have a thing call the TA that calls for separate ops until a joint contract is ratified. It is also possible because that TA allowed the company to shrink both sides, and you side's shrinkage out ran it's attrition, just as it did on the east for so many years.

Let me ask you this: Had the east stayed in ALPA and simply delayed the Nic with the dual ratification provided for under the TA, would you feel the same way? After all, the outcome would have been the same.

 

[RSVP767]

That's because of the 500 new pilots Parker added to your seniority list following 2005 to meet the growth he sent your way. I'm surprised you are actually acknowledging it, really, I am.

Wow! Do you really believe this? If so, you have no business being in any cockpit. This is the stupidest statement I've seen on this board. It also demonstrates why you will never 'get it'.

 

[Pi brat]

Do you plan to run these what if scenarios out once the NIC is agreed to in section 22 and after a JCBA ratified or is this just provide a diversion away from the legal proceedings which will liven up again in a few weeks? Will you be back in 20 years to tell us all where you would have been had the NIC not been implemented and you could have retained separate ops forever?

It must be nice to play the what if games when you get to take full advantage of the financial health benefits that came to the east route infrastructure subsequent to the merger without having to give up any of the sacrifices of being merged in with the other pilot group. The mechanisms that produced an exit from bankruptcy also came with a requirement to follow an SLI process and to complete the integration of the two pilot groups. Seems to me you want all the benefits of the merger process and none of the downsides that were required for the transaction to occur in the first place. Do you seriously not see any ethical dilemmas to pursuing this approach?

Climb down off your pedestal preacher. I responded to aquaman's post, that's it. I've said repeatedly that fair is in the eye of the beholder and Nicolau was the one tasked with that. I disagree with his methods, but my opinion hasn't mattered to anyone. If 20 years from now westies are making what I see as inaccurate claims, then yeah, maybe I will be. But, I have one vote and that is it. I'm in no position to affect policy within the union.

Do you really want to talk to me about the east having no downsides? Have you ever stopped to think of what the east pilot's contract has contributed to this company? Have you ever stopped to think where we might be if we had not saved the half billion or so(just since the merger was announced) that LOA 93 has provided, at little to no cost to the company unlike the money it borrowed? You preaching is getting old.

 

[Phoenix]

Do you plan to run these what if scenarios out once the NIC is agreed to in section 22 and after a JCBA ratified or is this just provide a diversion away from the legal proceedings which will liven up again in a few weeks? Will you be back in 20 years to tell us all where you would have been had the NIC not been implemented and you could have retained separate ops forever?

It must be nice to play the what if games when you get to take full advantage of the financial health benefits that came to the east route infrastructure subsequent to the merger without having to give up any of the sacrifices of being merged in with the other pilot group. The mechanisms that produced an exit from bankruptcy also came with a requirement to follow an SLI process and to complete the integration of the two pilot groups. Seems to me you want all the benefits of the merger process and none of the downsides that were required for the transaction to occur in the first place. Do you seriously not see any ethical dilemmas to pursuing this approach?

The "Ethics" page over at Wikipedia needs a little help. They are having a little dilemma. Maybe your new year's resolution could be to help set them straight.

 

[Metroyet]

Do you plan to run these what if scenarios out once the NIC is agreed to in section 22 and after a JCBA ratified or is this just provide a diversion away from the legal proceedings which will liven up again in a few weeks? Will you be back in 20 years to tell us all where you would have been had the NIC not been implemented...

Bottom line. If it weren't for the Nic. We all know exactly where every single East pilot would be. Unemployed. Let's not forget that little fact.

 

[Pi brat]

Bottom line. If it weren't for the Nic. We all know exactly where every single East pilot would be. Unemployed. Let's not forget that little fact.

Bottom line. The Nic and the merger are two different things.