US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Metroyet]

Bottom line. The Nic and the merger are two different things.

Without the merger would there be a Nic to discuss? No. As they relate to the "where would I be now" question, they're exactly the same thing.

 

[Phoenix]

Bottom line. If it weren't for the Nic. We all know exactly where every single East pilot would be. Unemployed. Let's not forget that little fact.

A little too much spike in the eggnog.. it happens to the best of us.

 

[Phoenix]

...The Supremes certainly don't get much right these days (the last century or so),...

There it is... the perfect opportunity for your groundbreaking page on Wikipedia... "SCOTUS Errors". I'll subscribe so I can stay up to date.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Climb down off your pedestal preacher. I responded to aquaman's post, that's it. I've said repeatedly that fair is in the eye of the beholder and Nicolau was the one tasked with that. I disagree with his methods, but my opinion hasn't mattered to anyone. If 20 years from now westies are making what I see as inaccurate claims, then yeah, maybe I will be. But, I have one vote and that is it. I'm in no position to affect policy within the union.

Do you really want to talk to me about the east having no downsides? Have you ever stopped to think of what the east pilot's contract has contributed to this company? Have you ever stopped to think where we might be if we had not saved the half billion or so(just since the merger was announced) that LOA 93 has provided, at little to no cost to the company unlike the money it borrowed? You preaching is getting old.

Wow, must have hit a nerve there Pi. I never mentioned faith, religion, the Bible, or any other such reference to God and yet you classify my serious response to your post as preaching. I did use the word "ethical" which has no specific religious meaning except that people sometimes lump the idea of ethics into the broader context of morality and divine standards of conduct. Even then I didn't try to impose any standard on you I just asked how you can reconcile the dilemma between wanting the benefits of the merger (non-liquidation of AAA) with being happy to retain separate ops when 2/3 of the parties involved prefer to move ahead with a JCBA.

It's hard to see many downsides in comparison to the most-likely alternatives. The east pilots are on LOA93 which is certainly a far cry better than what would have happened in chapter 7. The east pilots didn't want the NIC even though it was final and binding and they have managed to use the force of the majority and a toothless RLA to achieve a delay in the JCBA process so as to yield the seniority benefits you described earlier as seen in the current east-only list. At the time of the merger there were roughly 1700 furloughed east pilots. Now there are none. Each and every one of these factors can objectively be deemed as a benefit to the east subsequent to the merger and the only price you had to pay was to reject any and all offers that would have improved east pilot pay via a new contract. And you want a medal for doing that? Your employer offers you a raise more than four years ago and the east pilots have refused to accept it and still can't help themselves from criticizing Management for not offering them more money. That's pathological.

So if there are any downsides to being an east pilot they are all avoidable and reversible with a simple acceptance of the NIC and negotiating in good faith using Kirby as a starting point. As far as I'm concerned the only reason the east is on LOA93 is because that is where they want to remain. Good luck trying to find anyone who is sympathetic to the east pilot plights when even the labor-friendly media understands that the east pilots are their own worst enemies when it comes to attaining quality of life improvements. Stop focusing on what will never be (improvement over LOA93 without the NIC) and start focusing all of your efforts on getting USAPA to change their failed tactics since the first day of their existence.

You want preaching? Okay try then try this from the Apostle Paul who suffered immeasurably more than all of the east pilots on LOA93 combined:

Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: I know how to be abased and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned to both be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

Notice that Paul's contentment comes from applying what he has learned. He knows that contentment should not come from having an abundance or a lack of something. Contentment comes as a state of mind that a person chooses through relationship with the Lord. That's why when you accuse me of proffering an opinion out of self-gain you are entirely mistaken. I don't look to my pay stub or the position I hold in my career as if those things could ever offer me contentment. I enjoy working so that all of my basic needs and even many (but far from all) of my wants are attained, but I don't derive my value in life from where I stand in relation to others who may have attained more or less than me. That is a losing proposition for 99.9% of the world's population.

 

[Phoenix]

Wow, must have hit a nerve there Pi. I never mentioned faith, religion, the Bible, or any other such reference to God and yet you classify my serious response to your post as preaching. I did use the word "ethical" which has no specific religious meaning except that people sometimes lump the idea of ethics into the broader context of morality and divine standards of conduct. Even then I didn't try to impose any standard on you I just asked how you can reconcile the dilemma between wanting the benefits of the merger (non-liquidation of AAA) with being happy to retain separate ops when 2/3 of the parties involved prefer to move ahead with a JCBA.

It's hard to see many downsides in comparison to the most-likely alternatives. The east pilots are on LOA93 which is certainly a far cry better than what would have happened in chapter 7. The east pilots didn't want the NIC even though it was final and binding and they have managed to use the force of the majority and a toothless RLA to achieve a delay in the JCBA process so as to yield the seniority benefits you described earlier as seen in the current east-only list. At the time of the merger there were roughly 1700 furloughed east pilots. Now there are none. Each and every one of these factors can objectively be deemed as a benefit to the east subsequent to the merger and the only price you had to pay was to reject any and all offers that would have improved east pilot pay via a new contract. And you want a medal for doing that? Your employer offers you a raise more than four years ago and the east pilots have refused to accept it and still can't help themselves from criticizing Management for not offering them more money. That's pathological.

So if there are any downsides to being an east pilot they are all avoidable and reversible with a simple acceptance of the NIC and negotiating in good faith using Kirby as a starting point. As far as I'm concerned the only reason the east is on LOA93 is because that is where they want to remain. Good luck trying to find anyone who is sympathetic to the east pilot plights when even the labor-friendly media understands that the east pilots are their own worst enemies when it comes to attaining quality of life improvements. Stop focusing on what will never be (improvement over LOA93 without the NIC) and start focusing all of your efforts on getting USAPA to change their failed tactics since the first day of their existence.

You want preaching? Okay try then try this from the Apostle Paul who suffered immeasurably more than all of the east pilots on LOA93 combined:



Notice that Paul's contentment comes from applying what he has learned. He knows that contentment should not come from having an abundance or a lack of something. Contentment comes as a state of mind that a person chooses through relationship with the Lord. That's why when you accuse me of proffering an opinion out of self-gain you are entirely mistaken. I don't look to my pay stub or the position I hold in my career as if those things could ever offer me contentment. I enjoy working so that all of my basic needs and even many (but far from all) of my wants are attained, but I don't derive my value in life from where I stand in relation to others who may have attained more or less than me. That is a losing proposition for 99.9% of the world's population.

Let me see if I understand your point. Your premise is that you can help us be content (and that presumes we are waiting for you to help us)...

1. Contentment doesn't come from an abundance or a lack of something. And..
2. You want us to make USAPA approve of you and be nice to you in order to give you the Nic, along with an improved contract. Then...
3. Of course, we in the East will get your approval and some more money, and you will get more money and more seniority.

(all of which have nothing to do with contentment 😀 ).

 

[USA320Pilot]

I believe the length of the recent CLT Domicile Rep Update is ridiculous, it says very little, and very few people will take the time to read this update. A do find a couple of points interesting including:

1. The CLT Reps believe there is only unity of you follow Cleary, the CLT Reps, and their minions. If we disagree with them then there is no unity.

2. What ever happened to the majority rules?

3. With the Addington loss, DJ suit having the West certified as a Class and an accelerated Summary Judgment on the horizon, LOA 93 loss, Preliminary Injunction, PIC underfunding/failure, and etc. now Cleary & the CLT Reps are touting the COC provision as the pilot's great pay increase salvation. USAPA's challenge: The CoC provision does not come into play if US Airways is the surviving business entity.

4. In another Forum there was a discussion of "Demagoguery" along with "Apathy" as the two biggest problems with the East pilot group. The definition of demagoguery "is a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power."

The USAPA leaders in power who were former ALPA RC4/5, UEL's, or are now referred to as the FOC (Friends of Cleary) crowd clearly use demagoguery as their form of leadership at the price of the membership. It's sick and sad, but demagoguery exists within USAPA at everybody's expense.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Let me see if I understand your point. Your premise is that you can help us be content (and that presumes we are waiting for you to help us)...

1. Contentment doesn't come from an abundance or a lack of something. And..
2. You want us to make USAPA approve of you and be nice to you in order to give you the Nic, along with an improved contract. Then...
3. Of course, we in the East will get your approval and some more money, and you will get more money and more seniority.

(all of which have nothing to do with contentment 😀 ).

Contentment is a choice that no one else can make for you or ensure you have

USAPA is the only barrier to achieving a JCBA for all pilots. If you want a raise then it must come from USAPA leadership being willing to negotiate in good faith and the first step to that is accepting the NIC.

You in the east will get whatever USAPA can negotiate. They can't negotiate away from the NIC and they will never get more than the Kirby proposal unless they can attain a substantial level of pilot unity.

I'm perfectly content no matter what happens and there is nothing USAPA or an east pilot can do to change my level of contentment. My response was to assist Pi who doesn't seem to be content accepting the NIC or staying on LOA93, though he does seem content to accept substantial benefits from the merger without honoring the agreements the east pilot group made in the TA which allowed the merger to advance as it did in the first place.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

USAPA is the only barrier to achieving a JCBA for all pilots.

I see no reason for a "JCBA".

You will never get a "JCBA", either under ALPA or anyone else.

Under ALPA, each group must separately ratify a "merged" contract. Guess the odds of that, one with and one without the Nicholau.

Under USAPA, the west dudes have a better chance of cashing their lottery ticket, but, the west is stagnant and the east is not. I cannot imagine an east FO willing to vote for a merged contract that includes the Nicholau knowing that they will go from right seat 767 international to right seat PHX-Yuma. Can you?

Not to mention, the east ALPA gave 25% of east flying to the west, which equates to a 50% increase in the west flying, allowing some 600 west pilots to not being furloughed. Why would anyone from the east give anything further to the west? An entity that the east saved from chapter 7? I say, let them die the death they deserve.

Go to work for evil, then succumb to evil. A phrase uttered by a former General Consul of USAir when I asked about going to work with America West. He is still on many boards in the SW and knows the executive thieves freaks in tempe very well.

 

[Phoenix]

Contentment is a choice that no one else can make for you or ensure you have

USAPA is the only barrier to achieving a JCBA for all pilots. If you want a raise then it must come from USAPA leadership being willing to negotiate in good faith and the first step to that is accepting the NIC.

You in the east will get whatever USAPA can negotiate. They can't negotiate away from the NIC and they will never get more than the Kirby proposal unless they can attain a substantial level of pilot unity.

I'm perfectly content no matter what happens and there is nothing USAPA or an east pilot can do to change my level of contentment. My response was to assist Pi who doesn't seem to be content accepting the NIC or staying on LOA93, though he does seem content to accept substantial benefits from the merger without honoring the agreements the east pilot group made in the TA which allowed the merger to advance as it did in the first place.

Since you have assumed that PI's contentment rests upon his abundance, and you are perfectly content no matter what happens, did it ever occur to you that you and PI both can be perfectly content if you vote against your own interests and in favor of PI's abundance? (Just saying, since the Nic isn't your concern.)

 

[Pi brat]

Without the merger would there be a Nic to discuss? No. As they relate to the "where would I be now" question, they're exactly the same thing.

So, your premise is that the merger saved my job, and thus I should be grateful that Nicolau gave some on the west a windfall? I don't follow your logic, as I don't know a single west pilot that wanted a merger with US or did a single thing to make it happen. Contrast that with the east pilots that gave through LOA 93 without which the merger would have never happened.

If you ask most people where you would be without this merger they would have a less rosy picture than you do.

 

[Move2CLT]

I see no reason for a "JCBA".

You will never get a "JCBA", either under ALPA or anyone else.

Under ALPA, each group must separately ratify a "merged" contract. Guess the odds of that, one with and one without the Nicholau.

Under USAPA, the west dudes have a better chance of cashing their lottery ticket, but, the west is stagnant and the east is not. I cannot imagine an east FO willing to vote for a merged contract that includes the Nicholau knowing that they will go from right seat 767 international to right seat PHX-Yuma. Can you?

Not to mention, the east ALPA gave 25% of east flying to the west, which equates to a 50% increase in the west flying, allowing some 600 west pilots to not being furloughed. Why would anyone from the east give anything further to the west? An entity that the east saved from chapter 7? I say, let them die the death they deserve.

Go to work for evil, then succumb to evil. A phrase uttered by a former General Consul of USAir when I asked about going to work with America West. He is still on many boards in the SW and knows the executive thieves freaks in tempe very well.

The east gave us flying?

Why did you "give" the west flying? Had you kept it, you would have seen upgrades.

Were you guys feeling generous?

 

[Pi brat]

Wow, must have hit a nerve there Pi. I never mentioned faith, religion, the Bible, or any other such reference to God and yet you classify my serious response to your post as preaching. I did use the word "ethical" which has no specific religious meaning except that people sometimes lump the idea of ethics into the broader context of morality and divine standards of conduct. Even then I didn't try to impose any standard on you I just asked how you can reconcile the dilemma between wanting the benefits of the merger (non-liquidation of AAA) with being happy to retain separate ops when 2/3 of the parties involved prefer to move ahead with a JCBA.

It's hard to see many downsides in comparison to the most-likely alternatives. The east pilots are on LOA93 which is certainly a far cry better than what would have happened in chapter 7. The east pilots didn't want the NIC even though it was final and binding and they have managed to use the force of the majority and a toothless RLA to achieve a delay in the JCBA process so as to yield the seniority benefits you described earlier as seen in the current east-only list. At the time of the merger there were roughly 1700 furloughed east pilots. Now there are none. Each and every one of these factors can objectively be deemed as a benefit to the east subsequent to the merger and the only price you had to pay was to reject any and all offers that would have improved east pilot pay via a new contract. And you want a medal for doing that? Your employer offers you a raise more than four years ago and the east pilots have refused to accept it and still can't help themselves from criticizing Management for not offering them more money. That's pathological.

So if there are any downsides to being an east pilot they are all avoidable and reversible with a simple acceptance of the NIC and negotiating in good faith using Kirby as a starting point. As far as I'm concerned the only reason the east is on LOA93 is because that is where they want to remain. Good luck trying to find anyone who is sympathetic to the east pilot plights when even the labor-friendly media understands that the east pilots are their own worst enemies when it comes to attaining quality of life improvements. Stop focusing on what will never be (improvement over LOA93 without the NIC) and start focusing all of your efforts on getting USAPA to change their failed tactics since the first day of their existence.

You want preaching? Okay try then try this from the Apostle Paul who suffered immeasurably more than all of the east pilots on LOA93 combined:



Notice that Paul's contentment comes from applying what he has learned. He knows that contentment should not come from having an abundance or a lack of something. Contentment comes as a state of mind that a person chooses through relationship with the Lord. That's why when you accuse me of proffering an opinion out of self-gain you are entirely mistaken. I don't look to my pay stub or the position I hold in my career as if those things could ever offer me contentment. I enjoy working so that all of my basic needs and even many (but far from all) of my wants are attained, but I don't derive my value in life from where I stand in relation to others who may have attained more or less than me. That is a losing proposition for 99.9% of the world's population.

I see you as hearing yourself talk as providing you with contentment. I've dealt with many like you that think you have it all figured out and are just sharing you knowledge with the unwashed. Let me break it to you, you are not Jesus.

With all you lofty ideals, you seem to be fine with the windfall provided to some on the west at the expense of some on the east. To the victor goes the spoils?

You don't have to be religious to be a preacher, history has shown us that.

Try some humility.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

The east gave us flying?

Why did you "give" the west flying? Had you kept it, you would have seen upgrades.

Were you guys feeling generous?

That is one reason ALPA is gone.

 

[Move2CLT]

So, your premise is that the merger saved my job, and thus I should be grateful that Nicolau gave some on the west a windfall? I don't follow your logic, as I don't know a single west pilot that wanted a merger with US or did a single thing to make it happen. Contrast that with the east pilots that gave through LOA 93 without which the merger would have never happened.

If you ask most people where you would be without this merger they would have a less rosy picture than you do.

Saved your job - correct

Windfall - incorrect as the Nic was fair and equitable

Choosing to merge - we were never asked

LOA 93 - never really gave as you had no choice

Future - much, much rosier than yours. We weren't close to bankruptcy and if we did file, we had a few years to hang on and had the option to merger etc. You guys? Not so much. Its was merge or liquidate.

 

[Pi brat]

Since you have assumed that PI's contentment rests upon his abundance, and you are perfectly content no matter what happens, did it ever occur to you that you and PI both can be perfectly content if you vote against your own interests and in favor of PI's abundance? (Just saying, since the Nic isn't your concern.)

;-)