US Pilots Labor Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

I see you as hearing yourself talk as providing you with contentment. I've dealt with many like you that think you have it all figured out and are just sharing you knowledge with the unwashed. Let me break it to you, you are not Jesus.

With all you lofty ideals, you seem to be fine with the windfall provided to some on the west at the expense of some on the east. To the victor goes the spoils?

You don't have to be religious to be a preacher, history has shown us that.

Try some humility.

Where did I ever claim to be Jesus? Just so we are clear, I know I'm not Jesus or God and I know that I never will be. I freely admit that I am anything but perfect. I make mistakes and try to be open to correction anytime someone can show me that I have made an error in facts, reasoning, or logic. So, if you want to show me where I was wrong on any issue based on a factual refutation of my position, please do so. If you do that you will see an apology from me and a full acknowledgement that you were right and I was wrong.

So then, let's talk about this "windfall" to the west. First we need an objective and unbiased definition of a windfall and then we need clear and irrefutable evidence that certain west pilots were expected to receive this windfall upon implementation of the NIC. I'm certainly open to that dialog if you can provide such factual information.

Absent that, I have yet to accept this idea of a west windfall. What I do see (and I believe this is entirely based on verifiable fact) is that the NIC award:
1. Protected the top 517 east WB pilots for the remainder of their careers
2. Slotted the integrated list so that after the top 517 positions there were 2 senior east pilots for every senior west pilot as the list was ordered from the top down to the bottom
3. That every pilot, east and west, who held an active position on the separate lists was effectively able to hold that same position once the integrated list came into effect (assuming a static or growing fleet which at the time of the award seemed reasonable)
4. That those junior active pilots on both lists remained in a very junior but still active position on the combined list.

Do I have any of that wrong Pi? If not, does your definition of a windfall fit into one of those four factual statements or is it based on something else?

 

[Phoenix]

When was the last time a vote was taken on the accepting/rejecting the NIC or on a TA for a JCBA? I don't recall any of these issues being offered up to a vote. It's a myth to say that if the west pilots would do something different that this would all be over. Look at the Company's testimony before judge Silver and show me where they have ever said they would have accepted USAPA's non-NIC seniority list if it were not for the west pilots. The west pilots have no power over the negotiating process and have no say in what seniority list is used. That's not to say that the west pilots are sitting idly by waiting for USAPA and Management to come to an agreement, but all the west pilots can really do is expose the potential legal liabilities that may come from a particular decision one or both parties may make. If there were no legal basis for protecting the west pilots' rights, then USAPA and Management wouldn't give them a forum to be heard (not suggesting that USAPA does without Management or the courts forcing them to).

Therefore, even if I accepted your premise that my vote should be used to aide Pi's plight to get off of LOA93 and retain his best possible position on the integrated seniority list, where is/was the election ballot upon which that could be done? In reality, my vote is always one of conscience rather than personal gain. There have been times when a particular issue would likely result in a direct benefit to me, but I fundamentally disagreed with the principles represented by the measure and thus I voted no even though the implication of that vote was that I was voting against my own financial gain. As a voter I separate personal interests from my fundamental principles.

So if the city, state of feds offered me a chance to vote on a measure that would increase taxes on non-residents (hotel, rental car surcharges for example), and would use those funds in such a way as to almost guarantee an increase in my property value (building a freeway or ballpark or whatever) I would still vote 'no' because I will absolutely never vote for a tax increase no matter what the issue or cause may be. Bribing me to vote to harm someone else so that I can gain personally does not work on me. In the same way, if NIC had ordered the list by DOH, there is no amount of promised benefits to me personally that would cause me to seek to overturn a final and binding arbitration for personal gain. That kind of unscrupulous political maneuvering quid pro quo may work on some people, but it would never work on me if it means violating my fundamental principles/core values.

My post was sarcasm... sorta like a rhetorical question, but not really. Somehow I'm not surprised that you still think we are having a discussion. I can't wait to see how long your next sermon is. Maybe you could focus on integrity and its relationship to legal recourse.

 

[Move2CLT]

The other option is TeamViewer which is free, which allows you to control your computer at home (the one you say has the files and can upload) with your iPad.

Or Parallels and it's iPad app?


And what if my computer is off?

Not much help, right?

I know more about my options than you do. If I could have served the vid I would have.

Just have to wait until I get back.

Patience.

 

[CallawayGolf]

My post was sarcasm... sorta like a rhetorical question, but not really. Somehow I'm not surprised that you still think we are having a discussion. I can't wait to see how long your next sermon is. Maybe you could focus on integrity and its relationship to legal recourse.

I've seen more than enough of your posts to know what you generally bring to this forum. Still, you don't think that sarcasm should elicit a response?

What you may or may not realize is that just before Christmas Pi accused me of only holding to my position in support of the NIC because of some perceived personal gain for doing so. Your self-described sarcastic posts allowed me to respond in such a way as to clarify why that hypothesis was not based on fact. So even though you may feel that your sarcastic posts hold no real value and may contribute nothing to this forum, they certainly have helped me to further clarify this issue. If you ever want to have a meaningful conversation, I'm open to that. If you don't want me responding to your posts then you might want to stop posting, sarcasm or otherwise.

 

[Phoenix]

I've seen more than enough of your posts to know what you generally bring to this forum. Still, you don't think that sarcasm should elicit a response?

What you may or may not realize is that just before Christmas Pi accused me of only holding to my position in support of the NIC because of some perceived personal gain for doing so. Your self-described sarcastic posts allowed me to respond in such a way as to clarify why that hypothesis was not based on fact. So even though you may feel that your sarcastic posts hold no real value and may contribute nothing to this forum, they certainly have helped me to further clarify this issue. If you ever want to have a meaningful conversation, I'm open to that. If you don't want me responding to your posts then you might want to stop posting, sarcasm or otherwise.

I had no idea this was about your integrity, and I am delighted that you found my posts to be helpful for your cause.

PI, calling PI... Please PI, can you reassure Callaway that you never meant to impugn his integrity with non-factual hypotheses (or if you did, please humbly apologize with ashes on your head). I'm afraid that until you reassure Callaway that you are content with his integrity, we won't be able to move on to something else, thus denying us of having a meaningful conversation with him.

 

[CallawayGolf]

http://airlineforums.com/topic/49837-us-pilots-labor-discussion/page__view__findpost__p__857649

Let me append my list from this previous post...

5. Any JCBA (Kirby or better) which results in pay parity will mathematically benefit every east pilot substantially more than every west pilot in terms of a percentage wage/rate increase. There is simply no way for the financial benefits of a JCBA to be spread equally to both groups and still achieve a pay parity result. So the west loses on this count too in comparison to the east.

So again, where is this west windfall from the NIC?

 

[traderjake]

Somehow I'm not surprised that you still think we are having a discussion.

He said the same thing to the spotted deer on Christmas day.

 

[nic4us]

http://airlineforums.com/topic/49837-us-pilots-labor-discussion/page__view__findpost__p__857649

Let me append my list from this previous post...

5. Any JCBA (Kirby or better) which results in pay parity will mathematically benefit every east pilot substantially more than every west pilot in terms of a percentage wage/rate increase. There is simply no way for the financial benefits of a JCBA to be spread equally to both groups and still achieve a pay parity result. So the west loses on this count too in comparison to the east.

So again, where is this west windfall from the NIC?

There is no West windfall from the Nic.

They have you chasing ghost Callaway.

As you already pointed out, the east's benefit from the merger was far greater than the West's. Nicolau reasoned in his reply to Brucia's disent, that the fact Brucia even had to bring up consideration for furloughee's LOS, actually supported the West's MC's position.


Bottom line is usapa is stealing West job's, and now they are even brazen enough to use the fact that they have stolen West jobs, as a reason they should be allowed to steal more West jobs.

 

[Pi brat]

I had no idea this was about your integrity, and I am delighted that you found my posts to be helpful for your cause.

PI, calling PI... Please PI, can you reassure Callaway that you never meant to impugn his integrity with non-factual hypotheses (or if you did, please humbly apologize with ashes on your head). I'm afraid that until you reassure Callaway that you are content with his integrity, we won't be able to move on to something else, thus denying us of having a meaningful conversation with him.

I did indeed imply that his integrity is in doubt. It does not affect him though, as he is immune to outside influence. Carry on.

 

[Pi brat]

http://airlineforums.com/topic/49837-us-pilots-labor-discussion/page__view__findpost__p__857649

Let me append my list from this previous post...

5. Any JCBA (Kirby or better) which results in pay parity will mathematically benefit every east pilot substantially more than every west pilot in terms of a percentage wage/rate increase. There is simply no way for the financial benefits of a JCBA to be spread equally to both groups and still achieve a pay parity result. So the west loses on this count too in comparison to the east.

So again, where is this west windfall from the NIC?

The windfall from the Nic comes from west pilots gaining more in seniority than they would have on a west standalone list. The west guy I mentioned earlier will hit,at retirement, the top 5% or so on the Nic(at a bigger airline, with more bidding opportunities), while on an AWA standalone list he would only make it to about 13%. Where does that gain come from you ask? The east, as many guys won't hit what the would on an east standalone list. He doesn't even have to wait until retirement. If the Nic were to be implemented tomorrow he could hold any number of higher paying positions on the east that he couldn't hold on the west. Windfall: an unexpected, unearned, or sudden gain or advantage.

To state otherwise just further erodes your integrity. The thing is, you don't have to justify it or explain away the windfalls. The ALPA merger policy didn't say There Shall Be No Windfalls. It just said a goal was that they be avoided.

 

[Pi brat]

Bottom line is usapa is stealing West job's, and now they are even brazen enough to use the fact that they have stolen West jobs, as a reason they should be allowed to steal more West jobs.

You are still full of crap on this. There is no stealing and just saying it over an over doesn't make it so. Read the TA-separate ops until a joint, RATIFIED contract. Period.

Like I asked someone else, had this all been delayed by the TA's separate ratification provisions would you still be screaming theft? If it had been the west stalling as they thought they would have to do, would you still be whining "theft"?

 

[Move2CLT]

You are still full of crap on this. There is no stealing and just saying it over an over doesn't make it so. Read the TA-separate ops until a joint, RATIFIED contract. Period.

Like I asked someone else, had this all been delayed by the TA's separate ratification provisions would you still be screaming theft? If it had been the west stalling as they thought they would have to do, would you still be whining "theft"?

And the Nic is fair. Saying otherwise over and over doesn't make it so.

Practice what you preach.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The west guy I mentioned earlier will hit,at retirement, the top 5% or so on the Nic(at a bigger airline, with more bidding opportunities), while on an AWA standalone list he would only make it to about 13%.

Playing those expectations when they're in your favor, huh? How about the east guy you mentioned. His realistic expectation prior to the merger agreement was starting over on the bottom of some other carrier's list or worse. Not having to do that is a windfall, wouldn't you think?

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

The windfall from the Nic comes from west pilots gaining more in seniority than they would have on a west standalone list. The west guy I mentioned earlier will hit,at retirement, the top 5% or so on the Nic(at a bigger airline, with more bidding opportunities), while on an AWA standalone list he would only make it to about 13%. Where does that gain come from you ask? The east, as many guys won't hit what the would on an east standalone list. He doesn't even have to wait until retirement. If the Nic were to be implemented tomorrow he could hold any number of higher paying positions on the east that he couldn't hold on the west. Windfall: an unexpected, unearned, or sudden gain or advantage.

To state otherwise just further erodes your integrity. The thing is, you don't have to justify it or explain away the windfalls. The ALPA merger policy didn't say There Shall Be No Windfalls. It just said a goal was that they be avoided.

You know what after 4 years I am sick and tired about talking about how fair or unfair the Nicolau award is. It does not matter. The guy that we hired to decide fair decided that it is fair. Using A/M if the process was followed it is by definition fair.

You guys can scream unfair or windfall all day until you retire. I don't care anymore.

The courts have this. Silver is going to determine the legal standing of the company. You or usapa or any east pilots is not going to argue fair or unfair in front of the court. The only thing going to be determined is legal. Your chance to argue fair was in front of Nicolau. So we can stop wasting everyone's time talking about it. You are never going to believe it is fair, so be it. Go to your grave thinking that it changes nothing that conversation is over.

The true conversation from now on should be usapa and how they have managed to screw up the new union. From start to present they have accomplished nothing positive. The in-fighting is worse than under ALPA. You guys managed to get an injunction put on you. Negoitations have gone nowhere and will likely get parked very soon. The grievance committee has lost most of the cases they have tried. The biggest one being LOA 93. Held out hope for 2 years that you guys were going to get something.

So is this the union you all voted for? Is this what you wanted when you tossed APLP. An even more disfunctional union than you had? Paying more money to accomplish less. If you can point out the good part of usapa do so? Please don't say they are not ALPA. That is not an answer.

Self destruction seems to be the only thing you east guys are good at.

 

[Phoenix]

You know what after 4 years I am sick and tired about talking about how fair or unfair the Nicolau award is. It does not matter. The guy that we hired to decide fair decided that it is fair. Using A/M if the process was followed it is by definition fair.

You guys can scream unfair or windfall all day until you retire. I don't care anymore.

The courts have this. Silver is going to determine the legal standing of the company. You or usapa or any east pilots is not going to argue fair or unfair in front of the court. The only thing going to be determined is legal. Your chance to argue fair was in front of Nicolau. So we can stop wasting everyone's time talking about it. You are never going to believe it is fair, so be it. Go to your grave thinking that it changes nothing that conversation is over.

The true conversation from now on should be usapa and how they have managed to screw up the new union. From start to present they have accomplished nothing positive. The in-fighting is worse than under ALPA. You guys managed to get an injunction put on you. Negoitations have gone nowhere and will likely get parked very soon. The grievance committee has lost most of the cases they have tried. The biggest one being LOA 93. Held out hope for 2 years that you guys were going to get something.

So is this the union you all voted for? Is this what you wanted when you tossed APLP. An even more disfunctional union than you had? Paying more money to accomplish less. If you can point out the good part of usapa do so? Please don't say they are not ALPA. That is not an answer.

Self destruction seems to be the only thing you east guys are good at.

You seem to complain a lot and expect others to be as discontent as you seem to be. I'm content.