US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

What opportunities would the west pilot have had in 2008?

You have got to be kidding me. Please tell me you are kidding me?!

 

[traderjake]

Jake,

If you are going to interject, please try to keep up. I'm not talking about DOH vs. Slotting.

Move2CLT, on 29 December 2011 - 03:50 PM, said:

And the Nic is fair. Saying otherwise over and over doesn't make it so.

Practice what you preach.

Pi brat:

The difference is that I am right!

 

[Barrister]

You're making predictions about what could happen many years into the future (i.e. what will happen to a west or east pilot at his anticipated retirement age). Plus you are comparing a stand alone list to the NIC and any possibility of a stand alone system went out the window in 2005. West pilot #1800 gained nothing in terms of seniority when the award was issued just like east pilot #3200 lost nothing when the award was issued. That is the measuring stick of a windfall, not something that might happen 10, 20, or 30 years into an unforeseen future.

But let's evaluate your scenario based on your own definition of a windfall:
Unexpected: the merger was announced and the expectations by APLA and Management were establish in how the labor groups generally and the pilot group specifically would be integrated. So well before 9/27/2005 it should have been clear that a ratio-based integration was not only possible (not unexpected) but very likely to happen. This should have been even more clear as a possibility when George Nicolau was selected as the Arbitrator given his previous methodology. So the unexpected portion of your definition doesn't seem to fit very well. Not only that, but anyone with a rational mind could see that younger guys on either list would have the greatest opportunity for advancement given the sizable bubble of age 50+ pilots in the combined airline. What is the phrase we have heard here over and over again? "In ten years you (west) guys will own the airline." Unexpected, I beg to differ.

Unearned: How does one earn a position on a seniority list? When you come into a pre-established population you start out low and advance over time based on people above you on the list departing from the ranks. Perhaps more importantly, seniority is gained when people join the list after you thus pushing you higher up the list based on a relative position in comparison to others. At at relatively young or expanding company this seniority is "earned" rather quickly; a person may perhaps see substantial improvements in their position if many people are being hired in a short period of time (a few months or a few years perhaps). At a stagnant or declining company the reverse would be true and long periods of time might pass with little to no advancement (earning) in a relative seniority position (sound familiar?). In this situation a junior person might stay in the same basic percentile for a decade or more "earning" virtually nothing on the seniority scale.

So what does a person actually do to "earn" seniority other than staying active on the same list and waiting for circumstances at their company to improve via attrition, growth, mergers & acquisitions and the like. He can't go out an hire a bunch of people to be junior to him if the company isn't hiring, so seniority can't be "earned" that way. And unless he plans to take out those senior to him in some kind of Tanya Harding kind of way, he can't "earn" seniority by getting those senior to him to get out of the way either.

Both east and west pilots were doing the only thing they could to "earn" their seniority at their respective airlines. That is, they stayed on their lists and held whatever position they could so much as it may have depended on them (which wasn't much besides not going on medical LOA or quitting). Thus all east and west pilots earned their spot on their lists and when those lists were integrated, they retained the same relative status they had already earned prior to the arbitration award.

sudden gain or advantage: How is anything about the NIC seniority list sudden? By your own analysis you are talking about what will happen at the end of a person's career based on a whole host of assumptions. The junior HP pilot didn't suddenly become eligible to hold a WB captain position did he? Does that junior west pilot still need to wait for circumstances that are beyond his control to open up opportunities for him or did NIC give any junior pilot a sudden or immediate advantage to displace someone more senior to him on the next bid or the next five bids, or the next 50 bids? How is waiting for an opportunity to open up for advancement that may or may not ever come based on factors beyond a person's control a sudden gain or advantage?

To say the least, I remain fully unconvinced even using your own definitions and examples. As NIC4 said, this whole windfall myth is nothing more than a phantom or ghost invented by the east to justify their refusal to accept final and binding arbitration.

Many words signifying nothing!! Try this:

A westie will move up faster and stay there much longer than someone on the east who has been here 5-10-15 years longer. See how simple that was??

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[cactusboy53]

Many words signifying nothing!! Try this:

A westie will move up faster and stay there much longer than someone on the east who has been here 5-10-15 years longer. See how simple that was??

NICDOA
NPJB

Second verse, same as the first!

DOHDOATHENICWILLBETHEFINALSENIORITYLISTANDYOUWILLHAVEGAINEDNOTHINGBUT
DELAYANDUNRECOVERABLELOSTINCOMANDTIMEOFF

 

[CallawayGolf]

You have got to be kidding me. Please tell me you are kidding me?!

I can only assume you don't have the specifics or you don't want to post them so that they can be independently verified and evaluated. I asked for specifics so we can talk about facts rather than presumptions but alas all you can offer is a snarky response. My presumption is that the NIC takes a west pilot that was in a particular seniority percentile (say 80th with 20 percent junior and 80 percent senior to his position) on a pre merged list and places him at roughly the 80th percentile on the integrated list. Perhaps a bit lower due to the 517 protected east positions. If that's not the case then show me from the award how west pilots gained more than the slotting ratio and percentile position in comparison to his east counterpart in the same percentile as the person to whom you are referring.

You seem to want to incorporate the dynamic conditions of events after the award and after the benefits that were gained by the east via the merger to show a windfall to the west. Since 9/27/2005 that is totally irrelevant because absent the merger no one knows with any certainty what would have happened absent the merger. So the facts that are important are how did the NIC integrate the lists and on the date of the award was there any windfall using your own criteria described above? I've already shown you the answer is no but you won't accept that because you want to compare 2007 apples to 2012 oranges in order to prove something about the NIC. The only windfall I see is that the east using the delays gained by a federal court to create separation between the two groups. Once the NIC is in place that temporary windfall to the east will be corrected and that is the nature of your current complaint. Had all of this been enacted in 2005 or 2007 as it should have been IMO that east/west seniority separation would never have happened.

 

[Pi brat]

Is there a point in there Jake?

Nic was a combination of methods, not straight slotting, or relative position.

 

[Pi brat]

My presumption is that the NIC takes a west pilot that was in a particular seniority percentile (say 80th with 20 percent junior and 80 percent senior to his position) on a pre merged list and places him at roughly the 80th percentile on the integrated list.

You have become irrelevant and not worthy of anything but a snarky response. Tell me, are the top 517 east pilots placed in a relative position with the west pilots? Are the bottom 300 east pilots as of Jan 2007 placed that way?

 

[HPearlyretiree]

“What part of "binding" do you not understand?”

I don't have a government job.

You wouldn't have a job if AWA didn't take over your terrible excuse for an airline.

 

[john john]

I don't have a government job.

A government contractor job

“What part of "binding" do you not understand?”
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?page=2&xmldoc=In%20FDCO%2020110523773.xml&docbase=CSLWAR3-2007-CURR&SizeDisp=7
US Airways management Presently before the Court is plaintiff's motion to enforce a purported settlement agreement between the parties.

 

[traderjake]

Is there a point in there Jake?

Nic was a combination of methods, not straight slotting, or relative position.

The NIC was slotting by equipment and status, fundamentally the same as the other three arbitrations and was fair.

 

[john john]

The NIC was slotting by equipment and status, fundamentally the same as the other three arbitrations and was fair.

Are you talking fences? Sounds like you are talking fences

 

[HPearlyretiree]

A government contractor job

“What part of "binding" do you not understand?”
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?page=2&xmldoc=In%20FDCO%2020110523773.xml&docbase=CSLWAR3-2007-CURR&SizeDisp=7
US Airways management Presently before the Court is plaintiff's motion to enforce a purported settlement agreement between the parties.

The word "binding" is in there, but that has nothing to do with ALPA or USAPA.

But, hey, keep grasping at straws, and remember, no more fake sick outs!

LOL

 

[CallawayGolf]

You have become irrelevant and not worthy of anything but a snarky response. Tell me, are the top 517 east pilots placed in a relative position with the west pilots? Are the bottom 300 east pilots as of Jan 2007 placed that way?

The top 517 were protected on the WB A/C and were thus given an effective super-seniority status. I have no problem with that.

We're the bottom 300 pilotss as of January 2007 active pilots at the time of the merger?

 

[Phoenix]

Shhh PHX, they think they are doing good work here. They don't get why I bring up the same thing over and over again, or realize that Jim and I are actually drinking buddies and just gaming them! ;-)

Ah, yes. I understand now. Be very qwiet. They are hunting wabbits.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

I don't have a government job.

You wouldn't have a job if AWA didn't take over your terrible excuse for an airline.

Actually, the east saved the west from certain liquidation. Your own serial drunk admitted that.