US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

Playing those expectations when they're in your favor, huh? How about the east guy you mentioned. His realistic expectation prior to the merger agreement was starting over on the bottom of some other carrier's list or worse. Not having to do that is a windfall, wouldn't you think?

Jim

Pi fails to mention that these east guys wouldn't have upgraded on their own list at the time of the merger.

 

[cleardirect]

You seem to complain a lot and expect others to be as discontent as you seem to be. I'm content.

You are content with usapa? Your expectations must be very low. Explains LOA 93 and all the "leaders" you guys have elected over the years.

Content to be the lowest paid worse contract in the industry. Content to be the joke of labor unions. Content to be used as the example of how not to run a merger and a union. Be proud of failure dude own it.

 

[Phoenix]

You are content with usapa? Your expectations must be very low. Explains LOA 93 and all the "leaders" you guys have elected over the years.

Content to be the lowest paid worse contract in the industry. Content to be the job of labor union. Content to be used as the example of how not to run a merger and a union. Be proud of failure dude own it.

You seem to have a preoccupation with other people's affairs and anger issues against people that are content.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The windfall from the Nic comes from west pilots gaining more in seniority than they would have on a west standalone list. The west guy I mentioned earlier will hit,at retirement, the top 5% or so on the Nic(at a bigger airline, with more bidding opportunities), while on an AWA standalone list he would only make it to about 13%. Where does that gain come from you ask? The east, as many guys won't hit what the would on an east standalone list. He doesn't even have to wait until retirement. If the Nic were to be implemented tomorrow he could hold any number of higher paying positions on the east that he couldn't hold on the west. Windfall: an unexpected, unearned, or sudden gain or advantage.

To state otherwise just further erodes your integrity. The thing is, you don't have to justify it or explain away the windfalls. The ALPA merger policy didn't say There Shall Be No Windfalls. It just said a goal was that they be avoided.

You're making predictions about what could happen many years into the future (i.e. what will happen to a west or east pilot at his anticipated retirement age). Plus you are comparing a stand alone list to the NIC and any possibility of a stand alone system went out the window in 2005. West pilot #1800 gained nothing in terms of seniority when the award was issued just like east pilot #3200 lost nothing when the award was issued. That is the measuring stick of a windfall, not something that might happen 10, 20, or 30 years into an unforeseen future.

But let's evaluate your scenario based on your own definition of a windfall:
Unexpected: the merger was announced and the expectations by APLA and Management were establish in how the labor groups generally and the pilot group specifically would be integrated. So well before 9/27/2005 it should have been clear that a ratio-based integration was not only possible (not unexpected) but very likely to happen. This should have been even more clear as a possibility when George Nicolau was selected as the Arbitrator given his previous methodology. So the unexpected portion of your definition doesn't seem to fit very well. Not only that, but anyone with a rational mind could see that younger guys on either list would have the greatest opportunity for advancement given the sizable bubble of age 50+ pilots in the combined airline. What is the phrase we have heard here over and over again? "In ten years you (west) guys will own the airline." Unexpected, I beg to differ.

Unearned: How does one earn a position on a seniority list? When you come into a pre-established population you start out low and advance over time based on people above you on the list departing from the ranks. Perhaps more importantly, seniority is gained when people join the list after you thus pushing you higher up the list based on a relative position in comparison to others. At at relatively young or expanding company this seniority is "earned" rather quickly; a person may perhaps see substantial improvements in their position if many people are being hired in a short period of time (a few months or a few years perhaps). At a stagnant or declining company the reverse would be true and long periods of time might pass with little to no advancement (earning) in a relative seniority position (sound familiar?). In this situation a junior person might stay in the same basic percentile for a decade or more "earning" virtually nothing on the seniority scale.

So what does a person actually do to "earn" seniority other than staying active on the same list and waiting for circumstances at their company to improve via attrition, growth, mergers & acquisitions and the like. He can't go out an hire a bunch of people to be junior to him if the company isn't hiring, so seniority can't be "earned" that way. And unless he plans to take out those senior to him in some kind of Tanya Harding kind of way, he can't "earn" seniority by getting those senior to him to get out of the way either.

Both east and west pilots were doing the only thing they could to "earn" their seniority at their respective airlines. That is, they stayed on their lists and held whatever position they could so much as it may have depended on them (which wasn't much besides not going on medical LOA or quitting). Thus all east and west pilots earned their spot on their lists and when those lists were integrated, they retained the same relative status they had already earned prior to the arbitration award.

sudden gain or advantage: How is anything about the NIC seniority list sudden? By your own analysis you are talking about what will happen at the end of a person's career based on a whole host of assumptions. The junior HP pilot didn't suddenly become eligible to hold a WB captain position did he? Does that junior west pilot still need to wait for circumstances that are beyond his control to open up opportunities for him or did NIC give any junior pilot a sudden or immediate advantage to displace someone more senior to him on the next bid or the next five bids, or the next 50 bids? How is waiting for an opportunity to open up for advancement that may or may not ever come based on factors beyond a person's control a sudden gain or advantage?

To say the least, I remain fully unconvinced even using your own definitions and examples. As NIC4 said, this whole windfall myth is nothing more than a phantom or ghost invented by the east to justify their refusal to accept final and binding arbitration.

 

[Pi brat]

Playing those expectations when they're in your favor, huh? How about the east guy you mentioned. His realistic expectation prior to the merger agreement was starting over on the bottom of some other carrier's list or worse. Not having to do that is a windfall, wouldn't you think?

Jim

Unlike a westie, or you trying to justify a westie?

My expectation was that US was going out of business. But that didn't happen, just like the west's dreams didn't. So, since that didn't happen why does the west deserve a bigger piece of the pie?

 

[Phoenix]

You're making predictions about what could happen many years into the future (i.e. what will happen to a west or east pilot at his anticipated retirement age). Plus you are comparing a stand alone list to the NIC and any possibility of a stand alone system went out the window in 2005. West pilot #1800 gained nothing in terms of seniority when the award was issued just like east pilot #3200 lost nothing when the award was issued. That is the measuring stick of a windfall, not something that might happen 10, 20, or 30 years into an unforeseen future.

But let's evaluate your scenario based on your own definition of a windfall:
Unexpected: the merger was announced and the expectations by APLA and Management were establish in how the labor groups generally and the pilot grouLp specifically would be integrated. So well before 9/27/2005 it should have been clear that a ratio-based integration was not only possible (not unexpected) but very likely to happen. This should have been even more clear as a possibility when George Nicolau was selected as the Arbitrator given his previous methodology. So the unexpected portion of your definition doesn't seem to fit very well. Not only that, but anyone with a rational mind could see that younger guys on either list would have the greatest opportunity for advancement given the sizable bubble of age 50+ pilots in the combined airline. What is the phrase we have heard here over and over again? "In ten years you (west) guys will own the airline." Unexpected, I beg to differ.

Unearned: How does one earn a position on a seniority list? When you come into a pre-established population you start out low and advance over time based on people above you on the list departing from the ranks. Perhaps more importantly, seniority is gained when people join the list after you thus pushing you higher up the list based on a relative position in comparison to others. At at relatively young or expanding company this seniority is "earned" rather quickly; a person may perhaps see substantial improvements in their position if many people are being hired in a short period of time (a few months or a few years perhaps). At a stagnant or declining company the reverse would be true and long periods of time might pass with little to no advancement (earning) in a relative seniority position (sound familiar?). In this situation a junior person might stay in the same basic percentile for a decade or more "earning" virtually nothing on the seniority scale.

So what does a person actually do to "earn" seniority other than staying active on the same list and waiting for circumstances at their company to improve via attrition, growth, mergers & acquisitions and the like. He can't go out an hire a bunch of people to be junior to him if the company isn't hiring, so seniority can't be "earned" that way. And unless he plans to take out those senior to him in some kind of Tanya Harding kind of way, he can't "earn" seniority by getting those senior to him to get out of the way either.

Both east and west pilots were doing the only thing they could to "earn" their seniority at their respective airlines. That is, they stayed on their lists and held whatever position they could so much as it may have depended on them (which wasn't much besides not going on medical LOA or quitting). Thus all east and west pilots earned their spot on their lists and when those lists were integrated, they retained the same relative status they had already earned prior to the arbitration award.

sudden gain or advantage: How is anything about the NIC seniority list sudden? By your own analysis you are talking about what will happen at the end of a person's career based on a whole host of assumptions. The junior HP pilot didn't suddenly become eligible to hold a WB captain position did he? Does that junior west pilot still need to wait for circumstances that are beyond his control to open up opportunities for him or did NIC give any junior pilot a sudden or immediate advantage to displace someone more senior to him on the next bid or the next five bids, or the next 50 bids? How is waiting for an opportunity to open up for advancement that may or may not ever come based on factors beyond a person's control a sudden gain or advantage?

To say the least, I remain fully unconvinced even using your own definitions and examples. As NIC4 said, this whole windfall myth is nothing more than a phantom or ghost invented by the east to justify their refusal to accept final and binding arbitration.

Please PI, for the sake of Al Gore's invention being able to maintain its functional integrity, please, please,....

 

[Pi brat]

You're making predictions about what could happen many years into the future (i.e. what will happen to a west or east pilot at his anticipated retirement age). Plus you are comparing a stand alone list to the NIC and any possibility of a stand alone system went out the window in 2005. West pilot #1800 gained nothing in terms of seniority when the award was issued just like east pilot #3200 lost nothing when the award was issued. That is the measuring stick of a windfall, not something that might happen 10, 20, or 30 years into an unforeseen future.

But let's evaluate your scenario based on your own definition of a windfall:
Unexpected: the merger was announced and the expectations by APLA and Management were establish in how the labor groups generally and the pilot group specifically would be integrated. So well before 9/27/2005 it should have been clear that a ratio-based integration was not only possible (not unexpected) but very likely to happen. This should have been even more clear as a possibility when George Nicolau was selected as the Arbitrator given his previous methodology. So the unexpected portion of your definition doesn't seem to fit very well. Not only that, but anyone with a rational mind could see that younger guys on either list would have the greatest opportunity for advancement given the sizable bubble of age 50+ pilots in the combined airline. What is the phrase we have heard here over and over again? "In ten years you (west) guys will own the airline." Unexpected, I beg to differ.

Unearned: How does one earn a position on a seniority list? When you come into a pre-established population you start out low and advance over time based on people above you on the list departing from the ranks. Perhaps more importantly, seniority is gained when people join the list after you thus pushing you higher up the list based on a relative position in comparison to others. At at relatively young or expanding company this seniority is "earned" rather quickly; a person may perhaps see substantial improvements in their position if many people are being hired in a short period of time (a few months or a few years perhaps). At a stagnant or declining company the reverse would be true and long periods of time might pass with little to no advancement (earning) in a relative seniority position (sound familiar?). In this situation a junior person might stay in the same basic percentile for a decade or more "earning" virtually nothing on the seniority scale.

So what does a person actually do to "earn" seniority other than staying active on the same list and waiting for circumstances at their company to improve via attrition, growth, mergers & acquisitions and the like. He can't go out an hire a bunch of people to be junior to him if the company isn't hiring, so seniority can't be "earned" that way. And unless he plans to take out those senior to him in some kind of Tanya Harding kind of way, he can't "earn" seniority by getting those senior to him to get out of the way either.

Both east and west pilots were doing the only thing they could to "earn" their seniority at their respective airlines. That is, they stayed on their lists and held whatever position they could so much as it may have depended on them (which wasn't much besides not going on medical LOA or quitting). Thus all east and west pilots earned their spot on their lists and when those lists were integrated, they retained the same relative status they had already earned prior to the arbitration award.

sudden gain or advantage: How is anything about the NIC seniority list sudden? By your own analysis you are talking about what will happen at the end of a person's career based on a whole host of assumptions. The junior HP pilot didn't suddenly become eligible to hold a WB captain position did he? Does that junior west pilot still need to wait for circumstances that are beyond his control to open up opportunities for him or did NIC give any junior pilot a sudden or immediate advantage to displace someone more senior to him on the next bid or the next five bids, or the next 50 bids? How is waiting for an opportunity to open up for advancement that may or may not ever come based on factors beyond a person's control a sudden gain or advantage?

To say the least, I remain fully unconvinced even using your own definitions and examples. As NIC4 said, this whole windfall myth is nothing more than a phantom or ghost invented by the east to justify their refusal to accept final and binding arbitration.

That's just it CG, if the east hadn't stalled the process, it wouldn't have been "way out in the future", it would have probably been on the next available bid. As of today the west guy I'm talking about could hold much more than he could on the west, stepping ahead of the east guy in line for it. I have no problem sharing everything in time and fairly, I just don't think Nicolau did it. That's my opinion and I don't really know why we are talking about it. You will not convince me otherwise, but you don't have to. The post that started this diatribe was a statement to aquagreen, that's it.

This says it all about you: "That is the measuring stick of a windfall". You don't say in your opinion, you say that is IT. In reality, that's YOUR measuring stick and I think you have to feel that way to sleep at night. That's what makes my skin crawl about you.

 

[Pi brat]

Please PI, for the sake of Al Gore's invention being able to maintain its functional integrity, please, please,....

Shhh PHX, they think they are doing good work here. They don't get why I bring up the same thing over and over again, or realize that Jim and I are actually drinking buddies and just gaming them! ;-)

 

[Pi brat]

You know what after 4 years I am sick and tired about talking about how fair or unfair the Nicolau award is. It does not matter. The guy that we hired to decide fair decided that it is fair. Using A/M if the process was followed it is by definition fair.

You guys can scream unfair or windfall all day until you retire. I don't care anymore.

The courts have this. Silver is going to determine the legal standing of the company. You or usapa or any east pilots is not going to argue fair or unfair in front of the court. The only thing going to be determined is legal. Your chance to argue fair was in front of Nicolau. So we can stop wasting everyone's time talking about it. You are never going to believe it is fair, so be it. Go to your grave thinking that it changes nothing that conversation is over.

The true conversation from now on should be usapa and how they have managed to screw up the new union. From start to present they have accomplished nothing positive. The in-fighting is worse than under ALPA. You guys managed to get an injunction put on you. Negoitations have gone nowhere and will likely get parked very soon. The grievance committee has lost most of the cases they have tried. The biggest one being LOA 93. Held out hope for 2 years that you guys were going to get something.

So is this the union you all voted for? Is this what you wanted when you tossed APLP. An even more disfunctional union than you had? Paying more money to accomplish less. If you can point out the good part of usapa do so? Please don't say they are not ALPA. That is not an answer.

Self destruction seems to be the only thing you east guys are good at.

Aw sugar, are you angry? I can see you now, smoke coming out of your ears!

But you know what? You're right. Fair doesn't matter.

 

[CallawayGolf]

That's just it CG, if the east hadn't stalled the process, it wouldn't have been "way out in the future", it would have probably been on the next available bid. As of today the west guy I'm talking about could hold much more than he could on the west, stepping ahead of the east guy in line for it. I have no problem sharing everything in time and fairly, I just don't think Nicolau did it. That's my opinion and I don't really know why we are talking about it. You will not convince me otherwise, but you don't have to. The post that started this diatribe was a statement to aquagreen, that's it.

This says it all about you: "That is the measuring stick of a windfall". You don't say in your opinion, you say that is IT. In reality, that's YOUR measuring stick and I think you have to feel that way to sleep at night. That's what makes my skin crawl about you.

You were the one that posted that a requirement of a windfall is for it to be sudden, not me. So are you saying that "sudden" is anything less than ten years? I have no idea who you are talking about but I would personally (IMO of course) not classify an event in late 2011 or early 2012 as being sudden if we are talking about a SLI award that began from a 2005 merger and a 2007 award. If ALPA/USAPA would have attained a JCBA in 2007 or 2008 then there would be no sudden jumps. Luckily for your self-affirming method of determining a windfall every day that passes in 2012 will be able to feed your notion that west pilots will experience a sudden gain after waiting for five or more years for the east pilots to actually accept a final and binding award and put a contract out for a vote as is called for in the RLA (good faith negotiating). You set this up so you can't lose so long as you get to make the definitions and claim that there is an immediate windfall the moment the NIC is effective. Doesn't matter anyway; the NIC will almost certainly be the list and even if it were the largest-ever seniority windfall in the history if the USA it still wouldn't stop it from being the legal list at US Airways if the courts shut own all of USAPA's delay tactics.

 

[Pi brat]

And the Nic is fair. Saying otherwise over and over doesn't make it so.

Practice what you preach.

The difference is that I am right!

 

[Pi brat]

the NIC will almost certainly

Almost certainly? You backtracking!

A joint CBA and bid in 2008 would have provided said pilot with many opportunities that he did not have on the west. Only in the Bible would that not be considered short term.

 

[traderjake]

The difference is that I am right!

Four pilot seniority arbitrations in a row say you're wrong.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Almost certainly? You backtracking!

A joint CBA and bid in 2008 would have provided said pilot with many opportunities that he did not have on the west. Only in the Bible would that not be considered short term.

What opportunities would the west pilot have had in 2008? BTW, 2008 is still 2.5-3.25 years post merger on 9/27/2005 so that is still not an "immediate" or "sudden" gain. Seriously though, can you be specific how a west pilot went from a particular seniority percentile on a standalone basis but then jumped up into a new seniority percentile based on the integrated list as of the date the award was issued?

I'm not backtracking. I did that just for you. It has always been my assumption that "in my opinion" was implied in ever post on any forum. However, since using weasel words like "perhaps", "almost" and "my opinion" help to keep your skin from crawling I figured I would throw one in from time to time on issues that are still to be settled sometime in the future. Just trying to be accommodating there Pi.

 

[Pi brat]

Four pilot seniority arbitrations in a row say you're wrong.

Jake,

If you are going to interject, please try to keep up. I'm not talking about DOH vs. Slotting.