US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cactusboy53]

CactusBoy53,

I understand your thoughts and they make sense. However, as a person who has endured the east UEL union actions who has been at the forefront of combating what I believe have been toxic east union activity I have a good sense of how this election will unfold. I know virtually all of the east candidates, I know their tactics, and I understand the sentiment of the different factions of the pilot group.

In my opinion, the best way out of this quagmire to prevent a split vote is to build consensus around a candidate who does not have a dog in the SLI fight and does not carry political baggage. If not, I suspect the east will use its voting majority to install east candidates to USAPA officer positions until after the SLI dispute is complete.

USA320Pilot

Well, I hope you are wrong. This is again squarely on the shoulders of the voters. Realistically the SLI "fight" is over. It's been over since April 2007. What has transpired since then is merely delay. As such all nominees have "no dog in the SLI fight".

The East voter has to ask these questions:
1. Having read all the transcripts that are available to me, is there ANY WAY that we can ultimately evade the Nicolau Seniority List?
2. If the answer to Q1 is NO; How much more money, 401K contributions, vacation time, time off and other contract improvements am I willing to deny myself for what little further delay there is?
3. Does the candidate have any documented leadership experience? In those experiences can the candidate demonstrate a record of success? Does the candidate have any union experience? Does the candidate have any experience with the USAPA inner workings?

I think it's going to be VERY interesting to see what CLT/PHL/DCA pilots decide to stay in the race (besides Andy).

VOTING DECISION: Do I vote educated & logically based on fact or do I vote emotionally based on angst & desperation?

 

[cactusboy53]

Cactusboy53,

Cactusboy53 said: "EVERYONE has access to pilot addresses. They can be bought or gleaned for FREE. How do you think Gleim/AOPA/Jeppesen/ etc. mail you notification that you can use their services to re-do your CFI?? Communicating with the pilots of this airline are protected by LMRDA rights."

USA320Pilot responds: I understand that, but that 's not my point. My point is that emotions are still too high and wounds are still too deep. When people are emotional they say and do things they would not otherwise do and they will associate PostCardGate to AddressGate and the 30-day suspensions. Whether we like it or not there are far too many people who look at the US Airways pilots as two separate pilot groups. I believe the post card mailing is going to be negatively viewed and will hurt Eric, Jeff, and Ken's campaign and increase the odds that Mike Cleary or Gary Hummel will win the election if Andy Reitz does not make it to the "run-off".

I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.

USA320Pilot

Sorry USA320. We're not in Pre-School any more. We/I can't fix the emotional wounds that you speak of. It's time to either put the big boy pants on or not. Voting in Andy will not abate that emotions that you claim the East pilot cadre has. If those people are still so wrapped around the axle, then those same people will vote for Mikey or Hummel anyway.

Again, the decision is up to each person. Whom ever wins the election (and run off if needed) will be the fate of all and the responsibility of the majority of the group.

To tell you the truth, your little anti-campaign here and on cactuspilot seems more divisive than the yet-to-be-heard campaigning of Eric, Jeff or Ken (IMHO).

 

[nic4us]

VOTING DECISION: Do I vote educated & logically based on fact or do I vote emotionally based on angst & desperation? [/size]

This is such a two way street.

Got a quick question for you CB, is my decision to not be a MIG an emotional decision or a logical decision?

 

[cactusboy53]

This is such a two way street.

Got a quick question for you CB, is my decision to not be a MIG an emotional decision or a logical decision?

Respectfully, an emotional one. For the very small sum of $20-$40 (a guess) less a paycheck objectors have chosen to fund & empower USAPA's various campaigns & strategies without having a voice.

As an objector you have some basic protections, but you do not have a voice in representation & contract ratification. As a member in good standing I expect to be heard by my representatives & National Officers.

I can tell you with great satisfaction that when I call Mike Cleary, he picks up. He debates his points (rather loudly) and I my points. I also think I can hear the vein on his forehead thumping away (but that may be my imagination). :angry2:

I would like to encourage you (and all objectors - East & West) to PLEASE reconsider your position. If you can do so before the 23rd of February, you can vote in the upcoming election.

IMHO, there is a very real possibility for positive change, and movement toward a TA to vote on (the reason I believe this is: If Doug really didn't want a joint contract, WHY would he bother getting legally involved with the DJ?).

 

[cleardirect]

What you say is all well and good but, in the end, the east has the majority of votes. They will get their way and I have little faith that there are enough of them sensible enough to support any candidate that will accept the Nicolau list. The Ferguson ticket doesn't have a chance nor does the third lister who claims to accept the Nic. The line in the sand will not be altered until the fat lady sings in court. (no offense to Judge Silver)

What happens if we merge with AA before the end of the election? Who would you guys vote for?

Is Cleary the guy you want running a merger for us?

 

[USA320Pilot]

What you say is all well and good but, in the end, the east has the majority of votes. They will get their way and I have little faith that there are enough of them sensible enough to support any candidate that will accept the Nicolau list. The Ferguson ticket doesn't have a chance nor does the third lister who claims to accept the Nic. The line in the sand will not be altered until the fat lady sings in court. (no offense to Judge Silver)

Ames,

I agree with you. I believe the only solution is for the East anti-USAPA, 3rd lister, and PHX-based pilots to band together to elect Andy Reitz as president. If not the east pilots have the votes to elect an east pilot president and we could very well see 3 more years like the past 3 years.

USA320Pilot

 

[Piedmont1984]

This is such a two way street.

Got a quick question for you CB, is my decision to not be a MIG an emotional decision or a logical decision?

This is more like the intersection at the departure end of 27L in PHL.

Is an east pilot who wants a final, definitive ruling from the court regarding the question of whether USAPA is bound by the agreements made by ALPA an emotional or rational decision?

Is the PHX pilot who plans to vote for Cleary (Move2CLT) because they view his leadership as the quickest route to USAPA's self destruction an emotional or rational decision?

Is there any possibility that one or more of the candidates who has supported the fight for DOH thus far and is considered a DOH hardliner - could actually change his position?

For the east pilots the main question in this election is beginning to crystallize into this: Do we want to continue the fight for a longevity based seniority list (DOH, DOH lite, LOS), or do we want to focus our attention, resources and limited funds on the fight to exit LOA93 and secure an industry standard contract? The answer is either/or.

 

[fifidriver]

Reform USAPA is mailing campaign post cards to east pilot's homes. I believe this is a huge mistake (presumably by Eric and Ken) because after receiving a 30-day suspension for AddressGate, presumably west pilots who have access to east pilot addresses, are once again sending information to a pilot's home. This will be negatively viewed by USAPA and the East pilots.

Just like the UELs who do the same thing over and over again and expect different results the post card mailing strategy is going to infuriate east pilots and I believe drive a further wedge between pilots based east and west of the Mississippi River. As the campaign unfolds it is becoming more clear to me that if Andy Reitz does not win one of the two "run-off" positions for USAPA president we will be likely have Mike Cleary or Gary Hummel as USAPA's next president.

Was there another violation by west pilots to mail information to an east pilot's home? It will be interesting watching this unfold, but to the UELs and many east pilots this could be like pouring gas on a fire.

I am not sure that I agree with your assessment (huge mistake) of the decision to mail campaign post cards to east pilot's homes. I believe it to be more of a calculated, strategic decision. While I understand what you are saying with respect to that being viewed negatively, I think that most east pilots are intelligent and sophisticated enough to understand that "Addressgate" with it's embedded, password protected, SSNs was simply an unfortunate inclusion that could be used as an indignant defense mechanism to "save face" or shift attention from the "elephant in the corner". Most of our SSNs are out in the public domain and can be attained with little or no effort. (If you don't believe me, I'll bet you $1000 that I can acquire yours.) I believe that for most easties the issue was more a case of having to explain to their spousal unit some of the more unsavory details of the east pilot's union course of action and the monumental individual costs, and then having to justify those little details to their significant other. Almost like the wife walked in and caught them masturbating. "Can you explain this, Honey?"
I believe that in close political elections at any level, the decision is won or lost with the swing voters. There will always be "hardliners" on each side. I believe that most of the pilot group, east and west, are intelligent enough and intellectually honest enough, to assess our situation and decide whose paradigm, based on past predictions and subsequent events was a more correct course of actions, and vote accordingly. The cards are designed for them.

 

[USA320Pilot]

BPR Telephonic Meeting Notice: January 20, 2012

In accordance with the USAPA Constitution and Bylaws and the Union Operating Manual, a telephonic meeting of the Board of Pilot Representatives has been called by DCA Reps Stein and Dugstad, PHL Rep Weidner and PHX Rep Ferguson. The meeting will commence at 1430 on Monday, January 23, 2012.

In addition to Officer Reports, the agenda will include:

Committee Staffing Procedures
Legal Billing Audit: Board review of billing audit to determine if action is needed

Participants will include the Board, Officers, Communications and legal counsel.

USAPA Communications

 

[Missfit]

I believe that for most easties the issue was more a case of having to explain to their spousal unit some of the more unsavory details of the east pilot's union course of action and the monumental individual costs, and then having to justify those little details to their significant other. Almost like the wife walked in and caught them masturbating. "Can you explain this, Honey?"

I really want to know what kind of people you're married to out West because every time a Westie characterizes us East spouses like you are here it makes me laugh. You really have no clue as to how supportive we are of our significant others. If you think they despise you, believe me we despise you even more. The West's smary little comments, the better than you attitudes, although it seems relegated to the boards...you never do speak to my husband or I in a bus. If you weren't so pathetic we might feel sorry for you, but as it is if you were on fire I wouldn't even spit on you to put you out.

Nonetheless, believe what you want out there but you are really so far off base it's laughable.

Now back to lurking...

 

[Pi brat]

I am not sure that I agree with your assessment (huge mistake) of the decision to mail campaign post cards to east pilot's homes. I believe it to be more of a calculated, strategic decision. While I understand what you are saying with respect to that being viewed negatively, I think that most east pilots are intelligent and sophisticated enough to understand that "Addressgate" with it's embedded, password protected, SSNs was simply an unfortunate inclusion that could be used as an indignant defense mechanism to "save face" or shift attention from the "elephant in the corner". Most of our SSNs are out in the public domain and can be attained with little or no effort. (If you don't believe me, I'll bet you $1000 that I can acquire yours.) I believe that for most easties the issue was more a case of having to explain to their spousal unit some of the more unsavory details of the east pilot's union course of action and the monumental individual costs, and then having to justify those little details to their significant other. Almost like the wife walked in and caught them masturbating. "Can you explain this, Honey?"
I believe that in close political elections at any level, the decision is won or lost with the swing voters. There will always be "hardliners" on each side. I believe that most of the pilot group, east and west, are intelligent enough and intellectually honest enough, to assess our situation and decide whose paradigm, based on past predictions and subsequent events was a more correct course of actions, and vote accordingly. The cards are designed for them.

Really!? Really? You think the east pilots are smart enough to see past "number gate", but not smart enough to know what they are losing in this fight or that they haven't discussed it with their significant other? Geez.

Strange day when you wake up and find yourself agreeing with both USA320 (at least the mailing is a mistake part-if education is their real intent) and Metroyet.

 

[Pi brat]

I really want to know what kind of people you're married to out West because every time a Westie characterizes us East spouses like you are here it makes me laugh. You really have no clue as to how supportive we are of our significant others. If you think they despise you, believe me we despise you even more. The West's smary little comments, the better than you attitudes, although it seems relegated to the boards...you never do speak to my husband or I in a bus. If you weren't so pathetic we might feel sorry for you, but as it is if you were on fire I wouldn't even spit on you to put you out.

Nonetheless, believe what you want out there but you are really so far off base it's laughable.

Now back to lurking...

Thanks Missfit, I missed your post before I wrote mine and you said it better than I did. I won't add my wife's comments........

 

[Keroseneuser]

I believe that for most easties the issue was more a case of having to explain to their spousal unit some of the more unsavory details of the east pilot's union course of action and the monumental individual costs, and then having to justify those little details to their significant other. Almost like the wife walked in and caught them masturbating. "Can you explain this, Honey?"

What frigging planet do you live on??

My wife read through AOL's web site, her response at the end of it was..."That guy is borderline psychotic, he is so full of hate. I would not want to be on a plane he is flying. The guy sounds like he is about to go postal"

My response to the mailings was "Eh more junk mail" and toss them in the trash. My wife was the one pissed off that some "Borderline psycho" (her words) has our address.

 

[cactusboy53]

What frigging planet do you live on??

My wife read through AOL's web site, her response at the end of it was..."That guy is borderline psychotic, he is so full of hate. I would not want to be on a plane he is flying. The guy sounds like he is about to go postal"

My response to the mailings was "Eh more junk mail" and toss them in the trash. My wife was the one pissed off that some "Borderline psycho" (her words) has our address.

Well good for you & your wife (& Miz Fit, etc.);

One vote for representation. One vote for each contract attempt. The voting "booth" is a very private place, and each of us must exercise that right.

I guess I missed the "borderline psycho" message on cactuspilot or reformuspapa. I guess I missed the parts in the legal documents where it truly is OK to attempt to evade a final & binding arbitration and OK to persecute a smaller body of people. :blink: :blink:

You exercise your freedom of speech rights here, and you and your spouses can exercise your right to vote on election day.

Vote angry and emotional or vote educated and logical. It's all up to each of us to vote the way we each desire. Have a great day.

 

[Ames]

What happens if we merge with AA before the end of the election? Who would you guys vote for?

Is Cleary the guy you want running a merger for us?

What I want and what I get are two different things. For years now I have wanted this clusterfcuk to be over with. I have wanted people to do the right thing and to go on with my career without unnecessary distractions. That hasn't happened because we, the west, are dealing with irrational people.

What I want, with regards to the upcoming election, is to see the Ferguson ticket prevail but, as I have already stated, don't believe it to be possible. The irrational majority will place whomever they want into office.

If we merge with American it will be deja vu all over again. Another irrational group outnumbering us yet again. In a way I will find it amusing to see Cleary (or someone like him) drowning in his own shite while dealing with those guys.

Due to the fact that a binding arbitration has been allowed to be stonewalled, a merger process totally subverted and a majority group of irrational people allowed to oust our representation to replace it with one of its own design I have resigned myself to the fact that our voice will not be heard through said "union"

Our voice will be heard in court, eventually, and until then I refuse to join the atrocity called usapa. This Jew will refuse to join the Nazi party and that's all I got to say about that!