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US Pilots Labor Discussion

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Come on now hairPi. You give yourself a bit too much credit if you think you "get to me."

I just like to throw in my pet name for you every once in a while so you don't forget the man love we have for each other.

And don't you worry about the FAs. Your chivalry won't get you laid on an overnight and they can take care of themselves

Look at how good ggiby is doing holding her own. :lol:

Scooter, the one that claims me is all I need........

Those AA rates?
 
To quote from the latest PHL Update:

“A question about the Declaratory Judgment case resulted in the point being made [sic: by Mike Cleary] that the Company is siding with the West on this specifically because the West represents a bargaining position that can’t be ratified. The result? Delay, and more delay.”

Really Mike? So according to you, we’re supposed to believe that the company has no case but somehow bulldozed a federal judge into believing that there was an actual controversy sufficient to meet the standards of Article III of the U.S. Constitution? Is that it, Mike?

Wrong.

The disconnect is not that there was a failure on the federal bench to not catch a “frivolous” lawsuit by the company. The only disconnect here is the failure for any of the leaders in USAPA to correctly articulate the irreconcilable conflict wrought by USAPA’s non-Nicolau objective.

We can dissemble our situation into easily recognizable components:

(1) Arbitration as called for under the Transition Agreement;
(2) Completion of the seniority arbitration with the result accepted by the company;
(3) Formation of USAPA to avoid the arbitration result;
(4) Changing unions does not relieve USAPA of its Duty to Fairly Represent or insulate USAPA from liability for failing in its DFR obligation.
(5) The law clearly holds that the company can be held liable for agreeing to contract terms which turn out to be a violation of the union’s DFR.

Point (5) is the reason we have the Declaratory Judgment. Contrary to what Cleary and Co. say, there is an actual, live and legitimate fear of harm for the company should they enter into a joint contract that doesn’t include the Nicolau. The legal theory is known as a “Hyrbid DFR”. Conveniently, USAPA’s founders neglected to disclose to the East pilots the existence of such a claim. I will expound upon this point further in another blog post, but for now recall Lee Seham’s offer of a cost neutral contract to the company in exchange for “labor peace.” A cost neutral contract would have saved the company vast amounts of money; over a hundred million  under the Kirby alone. There was a reason he was doing this – he had to attempt to make it worth while for the company to buy off on the risk of being sued by the West pilots under a Hybrid DFR. The company expained it this way in their opposition to USAPA’s Motion to Dismiss:

“On the one hand, US Airways has a “real and reasonable” apprehension of harm if it accepts USAPA’s seniority demands because, as described supra (5:3-12), the West Pilots will then sue US Airways for, inter alia, facilitating or assisting USAPA’s breach of its DFR. The risk of such a lawsuit is not idle speculation. The West Pilots have confirmed in filings with this Court that they will bring such a suit. Indeed, they previously sued USAPA for refusing to negotiate for the Nicolau Award, and a jury found that USAPA had breached its DFR. Addington, 606 F.3d at 1178. While the Ninth Circuit reversed on ripeness grounds, it noted that the West Pilots’ DFR claim would be “unquestionably ripe” once a CBA was ratified. Id. at 1180 n.1.3 The Nicolau Award resulted from an arbitration that the West Pilots consider to be “final and binding,” and, as required by the Transition Agreement, US Airways accepted the Nicolau Award after it was presented by ALPA. The West Pilots consider that to be the end of the matter, and they will accept nothing less than implementation of the Nicolau Award. Thus, US Airways has a “real and reasonable” apprehension that if accepts any seniority proposal other than the Nicolau Award, the West Pilots will sue. Doc 61, pg 12.

The East rank and file pilots were deliberately misled by the founders of USAPA. Seniority is not like negotiating crew meals – far from it! We now have a live and justiciable controversy simply because USAPA aims to replace the arbitrated seniority list with something different. The Declaratory Judgment is just the first step to resolving USAPA’s aims to avoid the Nicolau, and there is no guarantee that Judge Silver will completely resolve it.

The choice is yours to make: we can continue to litigate this for another few years with the overwhelming likely result being a court order to use the Nicolau, or we just accept the arbitrated list today and remove the only obstacle standing in the way of a better contract and a better life for all. If you like your current situation and wages, then by all means for any of the other candidates as their platforms are guaranteed to keep all of us locked at our current pay and benefits. If however you are looking to finally get off a bankruptcy contract on the East and Contract 2004 on the West, than there is only one vote for you: Ferguson, Koontz and Holmes.
 
The choice is yours to make: we can continue to litigate this for another few years with the overwhelming likely result being a court order to use the Nicolau, or we just accept the arbitrated list today and remove the only obstacle standing in the way of a better contract and a better life for all. If you like your current situation and wages, then by all means for any of the other candidates as their platforms are guaranteed to keep all of us locked at our current pay and benefits. If however you are looking to finally get off a bankruptcy contract on the East and Contract 2004 on the West, than there is only one vote for you: Ferguson, Koontz and Holmes.

I like that overwhelmingly LIKELY. Do you guys ever take off the goggles and actually read what they write?

Let me translate. Bend over and take it, it will be okay because it can't be as bad as it is.

A friend of mine sent me the links for the team AOLs website. I didn't get an email about them, did anyone else? Anyway, I took the time to read everything there and watch the video. twice. I tried to set aside my bias and really see what they had to say, with the thought of maybe voting for one of them. What strikes me is there is no plan laid out. Just "Give up and we will make it better". I want an explanation of how they will bridge the gap on the contract. I want to hear how they will overcome all of the hatred that has built up in our group. They promise industry LEADING, not average. Did they happen to catch our monster profit margin for 2011?

No guys, "trust me" won't get it. I will keep reading, but I'm not seeing the value in voting for any of them. Especially if we give up prior to getting a definitive ruling we will be fighting this for the rest of our careers in every vote and every election.
 
The choice is yours to make: we can continue to litigate this for another few years with the overwhelming likely result being a court order to use the Nicolau, or we just accept the arbitrated list today and remove the only obstacle standing in the way of a better contract and a better life for all. If you like your current situation and wages, then by all means for any of the other candidates as their platforms are guaranteed to keep all of us locked at our current pay and benefits. If however you are looking to finally get off a bankruptcy contract on the East and Contract 2004 on the West, than there is only one vote for you: Ferguson, Koontz and Holmes.

No Thanks.

I have read all the info from candidates. Ferguson camp has no plan other than put 1600 pilots above east guys. Doug does not want a contract to start with and the fantasy of "industry leading" from the west camp given our profits is laughable. Our profits don't even cover bringing the east up to the west pay, much less anything else.

So from what I see voting for furguson only throws most of the east pilots under the bus. Each person has to look at their own situation, but for me there is zero upside to vote for the west camp. The down side is quite apparant though, probably take a downgrade to avoid commute, or at best remain reserve where I am, hit retirement age never having the option to hold a heavy, having to possibly commute to even keep the seat i am in, all for MAYBE being brought up to current west wages. Which in my case is less than keeping what we have in the long run.

Looking at all the above I am content to see the court process through and let the retirements run. For the guys on the bottom 1/3 of the east list that get stapled under NIC the west camp is even worse for them.

Just my view on what this election means. Though I don't think I am alone by a long shot in how I see it.
 
No Thanks.

Ferguson camp has no plan other than put 1600 pilots above east guys.

Looking at all the above I am content to see the court process through and let the retirements run. For the guys on the bottom 1/3 of the east list that get stapled under NIC the west camp is even worse for them.

Just my view on what this election means. Though I don't think I am alone by a long shot in how I see it.

Kero,
Completely agree, you are far from alone!
FA
 
I will put it in AOL words since I got no reply to mine. Maybe you guys haven't read it yet. ;-)

"America Airlines presented its “term sheet” to the the Allied Pilots Association this week. It is important to note that this is the company’s proposal (or, its “ask”) to the AA pilots’ union as part of the bankruptcy proceedings. Its opening position includes an A-320 twelve-year captain rate of $161.23, and a First Officer rate of $109.64. The proposed pay-rate increases 1.5% per year after signing, in addition to a 13.5% 401(k) contribution. To be clear, it stinks, but it still beats the snot out of LOA 93. While in the early days of its bankruptcy, American Airlines management has proposed to its pilots a contract which would approximate a 33% raise for those toiling under LOA 93! If elected, we will be able to achieve a much better contract than this for the pilots of our highly profitable airline."

You can't just look at the rates since at first glance AA wants to farm out a lot of the company(sound familiar?). But, these guys fail to point out that all but the A319 are higher than the west and Kirby! "If elected, we will be able to achieve a much better contract than this for the pilots of our highly profitable airline." Highly profitable? What, a 1% margin? "We will". How? How are you going to pull off that unity with some of the comments you have made about east pilots?
 
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