US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

I do not believe however, that the money that the company is saving on LOA93 is driving the delay. If so, then why was a huge majority of the sections closed before the abomination that is USAPA came to be?

That the economy and the company's fortunes have changed since then?

 

[Pi brat]

First, I have been paying attention. The problem the Nic generated? Give me a break. The problem the east has generated would be the correct phrase there.

Nic, it is the problem Nicolau created! Whether we voted USAPA in or not, the vast majority of the east was very upset with the award. It would have been dealt with in some way. Saying it is only a problem because we made it one is at least incomplete. It's obvious that it was a problem, saying over and over again that it shouldn't have been doesn't make it go away or even any better! That was the whole point and failure of the AOL brochures. It would have been much better had you guys acknowledged it instead of reasoning it away.

 

[Pi brat]

As far as a platform is concerned, I can assure you that with the exception of our disagreement with respect to seniority, the AOL contingent has only the best interests of all, including both East and West pilots at heart.

You have got to be kidding me! I have seen nothing from this bunch that says they have any interest in mind, unless it just so happens to cement the Nic.

 

[fifidriver]

You have got to be kidding me! I have seen nothing from this bunch that says they have any interest in mind, unless it just so happens to cement the Nic.

I'm not kidding you. I think that you don't want to hear what we're screaming. IT HAS TO CEMENT THE NIC!!!!!!!!! UNENCUMBERED!!!!! I think that most of the rest falls right into place from there. I'd vote for an East bloc on that minimum platform alone.

 

[Pi brat]

I'm not kidding you. I think that you don't want to hear what we're screaming. IT HAS TO CEMENT THE NIC!!!!!!!!! UNENCUMBERED!!!!! I think that most of the rest falls right into place from there. I'd vote for an East bloc on that minimum platform alone.

There you have it, the nic, UNENCUMBERED is best for me. Okay fifi, I get it now. Now it not even just unmodified, it's unencumbered. Geeze.......

So, since you expect the east to drop this issue when Judge Silver rules, if she rules against the west and says the company must negotiate can I expect you guys to drop it?

 

[fifidriver]

Whether you like it or not, those are your choices. The similarity to talking to my kid is ******* eerie.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If you don't pick data to support a position, US is now pretty profitable for a carrier it's size. Who knows what the future holds - $4/gal jet fuel, fare increases, etc) - but US can afford the price tag of Kirby and most likely better. Ancilliary revenue is slowly growing, fares are increasing, fuel is high but relatively stable for now. For non-pay issues, most of the carriers are in the same ballpark so little change would be needed there. That leaves pay as the big difference. I guess some of it depends on how one defines "industry standard or leading". To me, it's not that every item is the same or better but what the whole package contains.

But you go right ahead - consider "we'll negotiate" as the whole story if an east candidate says it but only half the story if it comes from the west. Believe that an east candidate can get industry standard but a west candidate can't get $0.50 more per hour, an extra 5 minutes of pay/vacation day, whatever. That makes it easy to dismiss the west candidates, as you want to do anyway.

Jim

 

[Move2CLT]

I like that overwhelmingly LIKELY. Do you guys ever take off the goggles and actually read what they write?

Let me translate. Bend over and take it, it will be okay because it can't be as bad as it is.

Thats funny about the goggles thing coming from an eastie.

And what the west slate offers you is much better than LOA93.

And just when do you concede to the courts? Anyone knows you can keep the legal battle going for a long time.

When would you call it quits?

 

[fifidriver]

There you have it, the nic, UNENCUMBERED is best for me. Okay fifi, I get it now. Now it not even just unmodified, it's unencumbered. Geeze.......

So, since you expect the east to drop this issue when Judge Silver rules, if she rules against the west and says the company must negotiate can I expect you guys to drop it?

I can't speak for anyone but myself. However, if Judge Silver were to state that the company "must", without caveat, constraint etc. ("pain of unquestionably ripe DFR" ring a bell?), not "is free" with corresponding consequences, Sure. I tell my kid on a regular basis that he "can" do a lot of things, but they typically have residual consequences that are quite painful and constraining. I don't think that "we" all quite understood what the Ninth's opinion was really saying, although legally that is how it has to be stated.

 

[Move2CLT]

You have got to be kidding me! I have seen nothing from this bunch that says they have any interest in mind, unless it just so happens to cement the Nic.

Of course there's no other interest in mind.

The only way to move forward is with Nic.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Oh, and nobody got stapled with the Nic.

That was true for a few months after NIC came out.

Now, years later nobody cares what was going on back then.

Right now if I vote for anything that contains NIC or candidates that support NIC it hurts me. Right now if the bottom 1/3 of the active east list votes for anything NIC they are voting to be stapled below 1600 west pilots. It really is that simple.

As long as the battlecry is "NIC unmolested" it will always be this way till the very very very last court battle is fought, whatever year that may be.

You accuse the east of ignoring what happened years ago. What AOL is ignoring is the current situation and the harm that east pilots will be doing to their quality of life and future prospects. They send flyers out etc. For 1/3 of the recepient list of those flyers NIC puts 1600 pilots senior to them that are not senior right now. For the other 2/3 it is a sliding scale of of 1500, 1400, 1300, 1200 etc as it moves up the list.

It's not 2005 or 2007, and there is no way to get pilots to vote like it is.

Next time thru CLT or PHL stop an East F/O and ask him if he feels like NIC would be a staple job for him/her? Most of the active east F/O's fall into the group that is at the bottom of the list under every west pilot on NIC even though their hire dates range from 1988 to 2008. Does not matter to them if they were furloughed or not even hired at the time NIC came out. They have a vote, and voting for NIC is bad for them.

Right or wrong that is the situation. Telling some guy to vote to put 1600 pilots above him because thats what some old guy said should be done 6 years ago is like telling a voter this coming november to "Vote for Bush" It is irrelevant to the voters current situation. Ignoring the current voter base as AOL is doing will never get this sorted out, and the more newhires we get on the property only makes it even more irrelevant at the polls.

 

[Phoenix]

I'm sorry, are you trying to decide how you will vote?

ROFLMAO

 

[fifidriver]

There you have it, the nic, UNENCUMBERED is best for me. Okay fifi, I get it now. Now it not even just unmodified, it's unencumbered. Geeze.......

So, since you expect the east to drop this issue when Judge Silver rules, if she rules against the west and says the company must negotiate can I expect you guys to drop it?

Of course the NIC, unencumbered is best for me. It is also my legal right. The time for negotiation is long past. This has been beaten to death already. I have some questions for you, and they are not rhetorical. Based on your interpretation of events, do you expect any other outcome? Do you see this turning out any other way? If there is a chance of some other scenario, what is it and what is the percentage chance of that occurring. If so, what is the cost of that "roll of the dice" and is it worth pursuing? Thx.

 

[fifidriver]

I wonder if the Ninth's definition of "not ripe" with respect to the filed DFR is at all malleable and could be revisited based on the company's and USAPA's "inability" (unwillingness) to arrive at an agreement, to the benefit of company and East pilots, but to the detriment of West pilots. Or alternately, would a new DFR based on those premises be viable?

 

[Pi brat]

If you don't pick data to support a position, US is now pretty profitable for a carrier it's size. Who knows what the future holds - $4/gal jet fuel, fare increases, etc) - but US can afford the price tag of Kirby and most likely better. Ancilliary revenue is slowly growing, fares are increasing, fuel is high but relatively stable for now. For non-pay issues, most of the carriers are in the same ballpark so little change would be needed there. That leaves pay as the big difference. I guess some of it depends on how one defines "industry standard or leading". To me, it's not that every item is the same or better but what the whole package contains.

But you go right ahead - consider "we'll negotiate" as the whole story if an east candidate says it but only half the story if it comes from the west. Believe that an east candidate can get industry standard but a west candidate can't get $0.50 more per hour, an extra 5 minutes of pay/vacation day, whatever. That makes it easy to dismiss the west candidates, as you want to do anyway.

Jim

Wow. A quintessential boeing boy post!

"US is now pretty profitable for a carrier it's size." Now you are starting to sound like Parker. No, wait a minute. Their line is "of it's kind". They can't say size because airlines smaller and larger have better margins. "Kind" more suits their needs. But, you are pretty good with numbers, so let's give that to you and agree that US can afford the Kirby. You are also correct that industry standard and leading are kind of nebulous, but would anybody consider the Kirby either? I don't anyone that would so we have the AOL team saying they WILL get better. Why is it wrong for me to be skeptical and question them? I have more experience with most of the east candidates. Some positive some negative. I have no experience with Ferguson and limited with Koontz and Holmes. It didn't end well, but at least I'm giving the chance to answer questions. Is that okay with you?