US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

I like that overwhelmingly LIKELY. Do you guys ever take off the goggles and actually read what they write?

Let me translate. Bend over and take it, it will be okay because it can't be as bad as it is.

A friend of mine sent me the links for the team AOLs website. I didn't get an email about them, did anyone else? Anyway, I took the time to read everything there and watch the video. twice. I tried to set aside my bias and really see what they had to say, with the thought of maybe voting for one of them. What strikes me is there is no plan laid out. Just "Give up and we will make it better". I want an explanation of how they will bridge the gap on the contract. I want to hear how they will overcome all of the hatred that has built up in our group. They promise industry LEADING, not average. Did they happen to catch our monster profit margin for 2011?

No guys, "trust me" won't get it. I will keep reading, but I'm not seeing the value in voting for any of them. Especially if we give up prior to getting a definitive ruling we will be fighting this for the rest of our careers in every vote and every election.

Which do you think is the "overwhelmingly likely" scenario.

1. The court system will uphold that indeed binding arbitration is binding on the parties that entered into said arbitrations?

or,

2. Binding arbitration means nothing when collective bargaining agents are involved?


usapa was told, from the beginning, that their plan would not work. Seeham was not the only lawyer Bradford asked, and we got the smoking gun letter to prove that he was told where this would end up. Further, of course the West told the usapa founders this will never pass the DFR test.

Did usapa ever mention in any of the road shows that they had conflicting advice from the lawyers? Not that I recall.

as far as campaign promises of "industry leading" and how to overcome the hatred, what exactly are the other candidates promising? Any east candidates actually come out and said "we are going to get a cost neutral contract in exchange for perpetuating the hate and reneging on binding arbitration", the usapa hallmark promise? Go ahead and vote for them if that is what you want.

Allow me to translate....take the medicine or live with the illness. The caveat is that the illness is working its way through the courts, and is "overwhelmingly likely" terminal for usapa.

 

[Phoenix]

I like that overwhelmingly LIKELY. Do you guys ever take off the goggles and actually read what they write?

Let me translate. Bend over and take it, it will be okay because it can't be as bad as it is.

A friend of mine sent me the links for the team AOLs website. I didn't get an email about them, did anyone else? Anyway, I took the time to read everything there and watch the video. twice. I tried to set aside my bias and really see what they had to say, with the thought of maybe voting for one of them. What strikes me is there is no plan laid out. Just "Give up and we will make it better". I want an explanation of how they will bridge the gap on the contract. I want to hear how they will overcome all of the hatred that has built up in our group. They promise industry LEADING, not average. Did they happen to catch our monster profit margin for 2011?

No guys, "trust me" won't get it. I will keep reading, but I'm not seeing the value in voting for any of them. Especially if we give up prior to getting a definitive ruling we will be fighting this for the rest of our careers in every vote and every election.

The 9th identified the issue when they pointed out that there is a seniority dispute. And they left the union and the company to bargain. The company strategy is always reduce labor costs, by any means possible, including circular lawsuits.

After two or thee decades of ALPA basement bargaining, the company has no intention of giving up that easy money. They have a crack habit and they will refuse to change no matter who's name is on the union letterhead.

Every vote is about the will of the membership, and until the judges, the company, and the pilots come to terms with that then you are correct, every vote will still be fighting about the affects on seniority.

 

[Pi brat]

Which do you think is the "overwhelmingly likely" scenario.

1. The court system will uphold that indeed binding arbitration is binding on the parties that entered into said arbitrations?

or,

2. Binding arbitration means nothing when collective bargaining agents are involved?


usapa was told, from the beginning, that their plan would not work. Seeham was not the only lawyer Bradford asked, and we got the smoking gun letter to prove that he was told where this would end up. Further, of course the West told the usapa founders this will never pass the DFR test.

Did usapa ever mention in any of the road shows that they had conflicting advice from the lawyers? Not that I recall.

as far as campaign promises of "industry leading" and how to overcome the hatred, what exactly are the other candidates promising? Any east candidates actually come out and said "we are going to get a cost neutral contract in exchange for perpetuating the hate and reneging on binding arbitration", the usapa hallmark promise? Go ahead and vote for them if that is what you want.

Allow me to translate....take the medicine or live with the illness. The caveat is that the illness is working its way through the courts, and is "overwhelmingly likely" terminal for usapa.

Nic, have you not paid attention? I've said, as many east pilots that I have pissed off will confirm, that I've always had my doubts about USAPA's plan. But, you cannot ignore the problem that the Nic generated. Whether we voted USAPA in or not, it was going to be fought on some level. AOL may be right, and they may win, but how do we get from there to a joint, RATIFIED contract? Especially when the economic value of a Nic inclusive contract would have to be much better to get of a lot of our votes?

I'm asking questions on how they plan on getting there, I'm not telling them they are wrong about the Nic or to stop. It's kind of like they are trying to get the bear. Well, they can't kill the bear, so what are they going to do when they get hold of it?

I couldn't find a way to sign up and comment on the website, but did email my questions.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'm asking questions on how they plan on getting there

Since it seems that all the east canddates claim that they're for DOH and at least an industry standard contract, are you asking them how they get there despite the years of litigation that'll result from a DOH contract? If so, what are their answers? You are asking both sides the "hard questions", right?

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Since it seems that all the east canddates claim that they're for DOH and at least an industry standard contract, are you asking them how they get there despite the years of litigation that'll result from a DOH contract? If so, what are their answers? You are asking both sides the "hard questions", right?

Jim

Yep, asking both. Still waiting on some answers. As or the presidential candidates, Hummel has pretty clearly laid out his plan, waiting to hear anything from Steve Sevier, haven't heard much from McKee, but I think I know where he stands. VP, Jamie Jauvrek and I talk quite often and he is more than happy to share his ideas with anyone. Bradford is pretty well known and has put out quite a bit, waiting to hear from Dopp.

 

[nic4us]

No Thanks.

I have read all the info from candidates. Ferguson camp has no plan other than put 1600 pilots above east guys. Doug does not want a contract to start with and the fantasy of "industry leading" from the west camp given our profits is laughable. Our profits don't even cover bringing the east up to the west pay, much less anything else.

So from what I see voting for furguson only throws most of the east pilots under the bus. Each person has to look at their own situation, but for me there is zero upside to vote for the west camp. The down side is quite apparant though, probably take a downgrade to avoid commute, or at best remain reserve where I am, hit retirement age never having the option to hold a heavy, having to possibly commute to even keep the seat i am in, all for MAYBE being brought up to current west wages. Which in my case is less than keeping what we have in the long run.

Looking at all the above I am content to see the court process through and let the retirements run. For the guys on the bottom 1/3 of the east list that get stapled under NIC the west camp is even worse for them.

Just my view on what this election means. Though I don't think I am alone by a long shot in how I see it.

You do realize that a union has an obligation to negotiate for the class and craft that it represents?

If so, you must realize that the "ferguson camp" did not "put 1600 pilots above east guys". The West pilots were placed onto a combined seniority list via a defined process ending in arbitration, that guaranteed a fair process in attempting to "preserve jobs, avoid windfalls, maintain pay, maintain status, and avoid changes in career expectations."

The point being, if the results of the DJ are such that it is determined that a non-Nic is a violation of DFR, usapa and the company had better show section 22 as closed at the very next negotiating meeting, less DFRII is then ripe. Further, any attempt by usapa to stall the process would also be a violation of its DFR. i.e. intentionally getting itself parked, not negotiating in good faith.

Oh, and nobody got stapled with the Nic.

 

[BoeingBoy]

And you talk about not answering questions.....

"If so, what are their answers?"

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

And you talk about not answering questions.....

"If so, what are their answers?"

Jim

I'm sorry, are you trying to decide how you will vote?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Avoiding the question? Oh, the hypocrisy...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Jim those answers are clear. From those I haven't heard from, I don't know. Waiting on them just like I am the west. For the rest of the east candidates it is pretty much the same. Follow the current strategy in the courts while continuing to work on a contract, as little as we can. When the issue is settled once and for all, negotiate the best contract we can and then VOTE. The difference in the east candidates seems to be along political lines.Hummel is advocating a change in the NAC and grievance committees, so has the biggest issues with what has been going on.

I don't see anyone with a great answer because I don't think there is one. I just see the west pilots as giving half the story and saying, don't worry about it.......

 

[BoeingBoy]

I just see the west pilots as giving half the story and saying, don't worry about it.......

What I thought. The east candidates promise an industry standard contract with a "I'll get it after the seniority fight is over" and no other particulars and you accept that but a westie saying they'll get an industry leading contract with no other particulars is only "half the story". Given what you've said about US profitability, how do you explain blindly believing one but claiming the other is not telling everything? A bias for DOH at almost any cost, perhaps....

The east's little added comment of negotiating "as little as we can" sounds like the east candidates accept the reality of an eventual loss in the seniority battle.

Jim

 

[Metroyet]

I knew McKee couldn't contain the crazy voice in his head for much longer. Conspirators abound!!!!

 

[fifidriver]

No Thanks.

I have read all the info from candidates. Ferguson camp has no plan other than put 1600 pilots above east guys. Doug does not want a contract to start with and the fantasy of "industry leading" from the west camp given our profits is laughable. Our profits don't even cover bringing the east up to the west pay, much less anything else.

So from what I see voting for furguson only throws most of the east pilots under the bus. Each person has to look at their own situation, but for me there is zero upside to vote for the west camp. The down side is quite apparant though, probably take a downgrade to avoid commute, or at best remain reserve where I am, hit retirement age never having the option to hold a heavy, having to possibly commute to even keep the seat i am in, all for MAYBE being brought up to current west wages. Which in my case is less than keeping what we have in the long run.

Looking at all the above I am content to see the court process through and let the retirements run. For the guys on the bottom 1/3 of the east list that get stapled under NIC the west camp is even worse for them.

Just my view on what this election means. Though I don't think I am alone by a long shot in how I see it.

Let me ask you this. Do you think that the only reason that the company is dragging their heels at the negotiating table is to save money? The answer is yes and yes! I do not believe however, that the money that the company is saving on LOA93 is driving the delay. If so, then why was a huge majority of the sections closed before the abomination that is USAPA came to be? The company, of course, along with most independent observers, and the West, understand implicitly that the USAPA's only "raison d' etre" is subversion of the NIC, and that collusion with USAPA would eventually cost them a lot more money. We call that a "win/win" situation! Oh. That's only for the company, for the pilots that would be a "lose/lose".

Inferring from your above post, I believe that at the core of your (and theirs) personal paradigm, you are not fully convinced that the NIC will be upheld, or you (they) are willing to pay the price. Whether you believe that the NIC is fair or not, is irrelevant at this point, except to the extent that you are willing to pay the cost of LOA93 for the benefit of upgrading as many East pilots as possible out of seniority order. Nobody is "throwing the East pilots under the bus". They are throwing themselves under the bus by continuing this debacle.

The choice is ours. I do not believe that if the AOL candidates are elected, they will withdraw from the DJ. We will still see the decision from Judge Silver. The upside you would achieve is that when the unfavorable ruling (to the East pilots) is received by USAPA, the inanity would cease, and we would shorten the time on LOA93 and separate ops. Otherwise, if we elect a contingent still clinging to DOH aspirations, they will obviously continue the fruitless legal battle and the circus will go on. As far as a platform is concerned, I can assure you that with the exception of our disagreement with respect to seniority, the AOL contingent has only the best interests of all, including both East and West pilots at heart. "Vote early, vote often!" Cheers!

 

[nic4us]

Nic, have you not paid attention? I've said, as many east pilots that I have pissed off will confirm, that I've always had my doubts about USAPA's plan. But, you cannot ignore the problem that the Nic generated. Whether we voted USAPA in or not, it was going to be fought on some level. AOL may be right, and they may win, but how do we get from there to a joint, RATIFIED contract? Especially when the economic value of a Nic inclusive contract would have to be much better to get of a lot of our votes?

I'm asking questions on how they plan on getting there, I'm not telling them they are wrong about the Nic or to stop. It's kind of like they are trying to get the bear. Well, they can't kill the bear, so what are they going to do when they get hold of it?

I couldn't find a way to sign up and comment on the website, but did email my questions.

First, I have been paying attention. The problem the Nic generated? Give me a break. The problem the east has generated would be the correct phrase there.

My point is that since the east elected usapa and decided to take on the duty of fair representation it now owes the West pilot group, the hairbrained Seeham scheme was a loser from the get go. So, in the context of this election, the east can either cling to that losing strategy or not.

As to how do we get a joint contract ratified, take the total number of voters, divide by two and add one. That is how many votes are needed to pass a contract. Given that the top half of the east list benefitted greatly from the Nic, I am thinking the total economic value that the company could offer would reach that number, being that the east gets a much larger percentage raise to come up to a near industry standard rates. In other words, even if it is all about the Nic, the top half of your list moved up significantly with Nic, there is nothing for them to get over, except the miserable pay and work rules that usapa has brought them by locking them on LOA93.

 

[Pi brat]

What I thought. The east candidates promise an industry standard contract with a "I'll get it after the seniority fight is over" and no other particulars and you accept that but a westie saying they'll get an industry leading contract is only "half the story". Given what you've said about US profitability, how do you explain blindly believing one but claiming the other is not telling everything? A bias for DOH at almost any cost, perhaps....

Jim

Where did I say any of that? Do you have voices in your head?

I don't remember the east candidates PROMISING an industry anything contract, but it is what USAPA has been working toward. Can you post their promises here? I feel like I have a pretty good idea of the east's ideas not the wests.

Here is a quote from Ferguson's blog: "If elected, we will be able to achieve a much better contract than this for the pilots of our highly profitable airline."

Are you buying that Jim?