US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Of course the NIC, unencumbered is best for me. It is also my legal right. The time for negotiation is long past. This has been beaten to death already. I have some questions for you, and they are not rhetorical. Based on your interpretation of events, do you expect any other outcome? Do you see this turning out any other way? If there is a chance of some other scenario, what is it and what is the percentage chance of that occurring. If so, what is the cost of that "roll of the dice" and is it worth pursuing? Thx.

Since the nic is best for about 90% of the west, I'm sure it is best for you. It is your legal right to fight for it and I have never said you shouldn't.

I've said over and over again that I had my doubts about USAPA's plan. I wish we had come together and did something different, but we didn't. The west pilots decided to go the legal route, their right, but now that we are on that path I do see some value in seeing it through to the very end. That comes from LOA 93. We didn't carry that through and we have been fighting about it since. I'm hoping for some clear guidance from Silver, but not hopeful.

I'm looking for answers on how "just dropping it" will solve our problems and get us an industry contract. So far, no answers.

 

[Pi brat]

Thats funny about the goggles thing coming from an eastie.

And what the west slate offers you is much better than LOA93.

And just when do you concede to the courts? Anyone knows you can keep the legal battle going for a long time.

When would you call it quits?

HOW does the west slate offer me better than LOA93? I'm all ears.

SCOTUS.

 

[fifidriver]

Since the nic is best for about 90% of the west, I'm sure it is best for you. It is your legal right to fight for it and I have never said you shouldn't.

I've said over and over again that I had my doubts about USAPA's plan. I wish we had come together and did something different, but we didn't. The west pilots decided to go the legal route, their right, but now that we are on that path I do see some value in seeing it through to the very end. That comes from LOA 93. We didn't carry that through and we have been fighting about it since. I'm hoping for some clear guidance from Silver, but not hopeful.

I'm looking for answers on how "just dropping it" will solve our problems and get us an industry contract. So far, no answers.

There is no "magic bullet" that will suddenly "solve our problems and get us an industry contract". However, given the inevitability of outcome, the next logical step is "just dropping it". The company has no incentive and is actually strongly disincentivized to make any progress toward an agreement with the inevitable hybrid DFR just around the corner if they accede to USAPA's illegal DOH scheme. Just like AA, and I don't mean American Airlines, "One step (day) at a time" and Sec 22 is the next step. Anything else is dissimulation.

 

[Pi brat]

the next logical step is "just dropping it".

That is your logic, but I think you are missing something. Without a definitive answer, we will fight this for the rest of our careers. History has shown us that people that feel strongly about something rarely "just move along". After USAPA won there was an east pilot on the ALPA web vowing vengeance on those that voted in LOA 93. WTF!?, but it showed me something.

Eric Ferguson and his supporters said Hell No to a negotiated solution to the Nicolau fallout. They formed an "army" and fought for their legal rights. So be it, it was their right, but they wanted a legal fight and they got one, with all that came along with it. A little late to complain about how long it is taking and what it cost.

 

[Move2CLT]

You guys are the ones complaining about delay hairPi, not us.

And why would we want to agree to negotiate a negotiated settlement. The Nic was the compromise.

You guys went all in on DOH, we called, and we got Nic.

You guys went all in with USAPA the DOH cramdown, we called, and shut you down.

So don't blame us for the delay. You can take all the credit for yourself.

 

[Pi brat]

You guys are the ones complaining about delay hairPi, not us.

And why would we want to agree to negotiate a negotiated settlement. The Nic was the compromise.

You guys went all in on DOH, we called, and we got Nic.

You guys went all in with USAPA the DOH cramdown, we called, and shut you down.

So don't blame us for the delay. You can take all the credit for yourself.

Did you miss fifi's posts?

So we are in agreement. Let it play out. Go tell EF.

 

[crazystnic]

That is your logic, but I think you are missing something. Without a definitive answer, we will fight this for the rest of our careers. History has shown us that people that feel strongly about something rarely "just move along". After USAPA won there was an east pilot on the ALPA web vowing vengeance on those that voted in LOA 93. WTF!?, but it showed me something.

Eric Ferguson and his supporters said Hell No to a negotiated solution to the Nicolau fallout. They formed an "army" and fought for their legal rights. So be it, it was their right, but they wanted a legal fight and they got one, with all that came along with it. A little late to complain about how long it is taking and what it cost.

Exactly.. I said on here years ago this is war. It's war because of the positions of both sides and there is no going back. As you know usapa was willing to talk. But it's not to be, so I don't want to see smiley EF face, The west is trying to take my living from me and I will fight scratching and kicking and as nasty as can be. Didn't want the fight but extreme positions brought it on.

So don't give a crap what you think.

Fight on
The more that it goes on and the more I read their solution... Bend over and accept the nic. The more I loath them

 

[Move2CLT]

That was true for a few months after NIC came out.

Now, years later nobody cares what was going on back then.

Right now if I vote for anything that contains NIC or candidates that support NIC it hurts me. Right now if the bottom 1/3 of the active east list votes for anything NIC they are voting to be stapled below 1600 west pilots. It really is that simple.

As long as the battlecry is "NIC unmolested" it will always be this way till the very very very last court battle is fought, whatever year that may be.

You accuse the east of ignoring what happened years ago. What AOL is ignoring is the current situation and the harm that east pilots will be doing to their quality of life and future prospects. They send flyers out etc. For 1/3 of the recepient list of those flyers NIC puts 1600 pilots senior to them that are not senior right now. For the other 2/3 it is a sliding scale of of 1500, 1400, 1300, 1200 etc as it moves up the list.

It's not 2005 or 2007, and there is no way to get pilots to vote like it is.

Next time thru CLT or PHL stop an East F/O and ask him if he feels like NIC would be a staple job for him/her? Most of the active east F/O's fall into the group that is at the bottom of the list under every west pilot on NIC even though their hire dates range from 1988 to 2008. Does not matter to them if they were furloughed or not even hired at the time NIC came out. They have a vote, and voting for NIC is bad for them.

Right or wrong that is the situation. Telling some guy to vote to put 1600 pilots above him because thats what some old guy said should be done 6 years ago is like telling a voter this coming november to "Vote for Bush" It is irrelevant to the voters current situation. Ignoring the current voter base as AOL is doing will never get this sorted out, and the more newhires we get on the property only makes it even more irrelevant at the polls.

Your entire situation was your doing. Time to accept responsibility for your actions and decisions.

 

[Move2CLT]

Exactly.. I said on here years ago this is war. It's war because of the positions of both sides and there is no going back. As you know usapa was willing to talk. But it's not to be, so I don't want to see smiley EF face, The west is trying to take my living from me and I will fight scratching and kicking and as nasty as can be. Didn't want the fight but extreme positions brought it on.

So don't give a crap what you think.

Fight on
The more that it goes on and the more I read their solution... Bend over and accept the nic. The more I loath them

It was you guys trying to steal from us with your DOH dream. You guys were NEVER willing to talk until it was too late and things were done.

You guys are not the victims here but the aggressors. We merely defended ourselves from your DOH cramdown.

Your fight for DOH is long over. Your compromise dream is just a dream now.

Your only way forward is via the Nic. Time to move on.

 

[Move2CLT]

Did you miss fifi's posts?

So we are in agreement. Let it play out. Go tell EF.

How long do you want to let it play out? Many out east are done playing and the positive east response to Eric's campaign is telling.

Your leadership is afraid that EF might have more traction then they thought possible.

 

[Move2CLT]

HOW does the west slate offer me better than LOA93? I'm all ears.

SCOTUS.

So when SCOTUS refuses to hear your case, then what?

 

[Move2CLT]

The 9th identified the issue when they pointed out that there is a seniority dispute. And they left the union and the company to bargain. The company strategy is always reduce labor costs, by any means possible, including circular lawsuits.

So why hasn't USAPA resubmitted the list? They've had plenty of time to do so.

Maybe it's because the list is illegal?

 

[Phoenix]

Wow. A quintessential boeing boy post!

"US is now pretty profitable for a carrier it's size." Now you are starting to sound like Parker. No, wait a minute. Their line is "of it's kind". They can't say size because airlines smaller and larger have better margins. "Kind" more suits their needs. But, you are pretty good with numbers, so let's give that to you and agree that US can afford the Kirby. You are also correct that industry standard and leading are kind of nebulous, but would anybody consider the Kirby either? I don't anyone that would so we have the AOL team saying they WILL get better. Why is it wrong for me to be skeptical and question them? I have more experience with most of the east candidates. Some positive some negative. I have no experience with Ferguson and limited with Koontz and Holmes. It didn't end well, but at least I'm giving the chance to answer questions. Is that okay with you?

I have no delusions that the company has any intentions of giving the pilots anything... except lip service that they want to pay pilots more. They only sure way to a better pay check and quality of life is via the PGBC payments while still working, upgrades to bigger equipment, upgrade to left seats, and moving from reserve to line holder. That is exactly why the seniority dispute is so entrenched... everyone knows the only sure way to better pay and QOL.

 

[Move2CLT]

Upgrades under LOA93 and it's wonderful QoL.

Great strategy.

 

[Phoenix]

Exactly.. I said on here years ago this is war. It's war because of the positions of both sides and there is no going back. As you know usapa was willing to talk. But it's not to be, so I don't want to see smiley EF face, The west is trying to take my living from me and I will fight scratching and kicking and as nasty as can be. Didn't want the fight but extreme positions brought it on.

So don't give a crap what you think.

Fight on
The more that it goes on and the more I read their solution... Bend over and accept the nic. The more I loath them

There was a time when pilot leaders could skirt the will of the majority by claiming to have more insight and understanding than the membership, and then they could escape the displeasure of the membership by being whisked away to Valhalla hideout in Herndon.

The long term dispute that was force on us all keeps everyone a little bit suspicious of folks who claim to have a new way to get past the seniority issue without dealing with the issue.