BoeingBoy
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US Pilots Labor Discussion
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That's the Pi we all know - can't admit you're wrong so resort to insults...
Jim
No, it's just what you are doing with your verbal games. Boingboy says "Are you claiming that you didn't say what you said I quoted you saying?"
Here's another: Did you get a gift card from smiley central for Christmas?
Want to change all of this b.s. and talk about something? If so, you said our career expectation was to liquidate. Okay, if you accept that then that was the career expectation of ALL US pilots, right? Yet Nicolau protected the top east pilots seniority. What about that? How does that match with your idea of career expectations?
Is there a point in there?
I've got a while before supper, so we can play this fun game for a while if you like. It's about your speed.
OTTER574
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Your starting to ramble on again brat and thanks for you responding to me in your very special way... 😛
I'm sorry to end it here, but I need to head out and buy some pool chemicals to prepare my pool/jacuzzi for February/March family visits...spring training and all.
BTW brat, I'm nominating you for the 4500+ CLUB of this so-called open and honest board. You're truly a usapa dream come true.
OTTER
Dude.......you like, have a pool? Wow. You must be a rich airline pilot.
See ya, you will be missed.
Might have made more sense than looking at the career expectations of some east pilots, but not all.
Phoenix
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USAPA hasn't negotiated 93+ LOAs yet and my pay has gone up instead of down. Is that what you are getting at.
CallawayGolf
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I'm guessing you already know the answer to this which is why you haven't gotten a response. Still, I'll take the bite and see where you want to go with this.
The award appears to me to have been constructed so as to keep active pilots in the same equipment and seats (or at least to have that option) as the first and foremost consideration. That is the definition of maintaining "career expectations" Nicolau preferred over any other criteria like how long a person had been in a NB right seat or whatever. So, if you were an east WB CO/FO the on the integration date, there were very limited scenarios using the NIC that would bump you out of the ability to hold the same position under the combined list. (That's a good solution don't you think?) The same would hold true for east or west NB pilots in whatever seat they held prior to the merger. (Also a good thing right?) Finally, those east furloughed pilots could also expect to hold the same position they had on the date of the merger, which was no active position at all but they did have the option to be recalled in the same order they would have been absent the merger. (Good for all of the active east and west pilots who were not bumped and replaced by a furloughed pilot, right? Also no loss of position/status for a furloughed pilot since the were still waiting for a recall to the lowest seniority position no matter how the active pilot seniority list was ordered, right? So that too is good, right?) So, NIC protected the 517 east WB pilots because that would seem to minimize people shuffling in and out of positions just because of how the new seniority list was ordered (that's a good thing right?).
Now five years later there are many active east pilots that were recalled after the merger who want to pretend that they were active when the integration occurred and that instituting the NIC now be more detrimental to them than if the merger had not occurred. Hmm, so staying in a low seniority position, but having the chance to be an actively flying pilot is somehow worse than being on furlough (or watching your company liquidate). That is some powerfully distorted logic there PI.
PI must thank USAPA every day. The western division complains it was formed to stop Nic. It does that totally, then they say it is a failure. USAPA has done exactly what the western say it was supposed to do. Very successful organization.
How long until the AMR merge? Those AA pilots can't wait much longer for the Nic to put young western pilots high on the list so they can jack up their seniority. Ha Ha ha! Eastern division should offer LIFETIME AA seat protection to all active and furloughed AA on the 767 and 777. This is the perfect opportunity for eastern pilots to torpedo Nic forever. Eastern be careful. The criminal Ferguson has conspired to put Hummel in.
The best opportunity for Cleary to flame Leonidas would be to slam those bi$&@es as he walks out the door with a seniority DOH deal with AMR
The best opportunity for Cleary to flame Leonidas would be to slam those bi$&@es as he walks out the door with a seniority DOH deal with AMR
Keroseneuser
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I would also like to learn how Eric is going to get us a fat new shiny contract with industry standard rates as claimed.
All I have heard so far is how we accept the NIC then this new contract for industry standard will just pop out of thin air!
Move2CLT
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No, that's just the way USAPA has conditioned you. You actually have to be smart and unified to get a contract and that's what Eric offers.
Unity first through the Nic and then a new contract.
You're not still waiting for USAPA to come through, are you?
How would me knowing the answer keep others from answering?
Nic spells out his reasons for doing what he did. I just don't agree with him on parts of it, and with the placement of furloughed pilots, Brucia agrees with me.
To me, a 76I IRO position is not a higher value position than any other captain position, but Nic ranked it that way, then gave it to a top east captain that could not hold a WB captain position. I'm not following how that helped keep the F/Os in there seats. They got slotted further down. Also he slotted west 757 captain positions higher when it didn't pay anymore than the A320.
Bottom line: Did east pilot have career expectations or not? If so, why were they applied differently throughout the list? I had the expectation, if we stayed in business, of flying capt on the A330 just like #517 did. His/her rights were protected but not mine. I had around a thousand west pilots that had no expectation of flying it put in front of me, with no protections.
Move2CLT
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Here you go MDA hopefuls!!!
MDA Was Intended To Be and Was Operated Separately from the US Airways Mainline, Including Operating with a Separate Pilot Seniority List
The 2002 Restructuring Agreement that permitted MDA to operate as a US Airways Express carrier makes clear that MDA was intended to operate separately from US Airways, as a wholly-owned independent airline subsidiary of Holdings with its own operating certificate,
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fleet, collective bargaining agreement (“CBA”), and pilot force with its own bidding and seniority system. See Restructuring Agreement (Ex. 1) at 14-16; System Board (Ex. 2) at 9-10. For example, the Restructuring Agreement states that “MDA management and ALPA’s designees will expeditiously negotiate a labor agreement.” See Restructuring Agreement (Ex. 1) at 14, 74. The Restructuring Agreement states clearly that MDA will have its own seniority list: “Pilots on the MDA seniority list will perform: All flying by and for MDA” and MDA pilots would be the source of MDA’s own training and check airmen. See id. at 14-15 (emphasis added). Moreover, the Restructuring Agreement linguistically differentiated between US Airways and MDA (and their respective pilots) throughout. See generally Restructuring Agreement. For example, in the Restructuring Agreement, as later in LOA 91, see infra at 9, the parties agreed that “US Airways pilots in order of US Airways pilot seniority” would be first on the “MDA Pilots’ System Seniority List” followed by pilots who came to MDA from other wholly-owned carriers via the CEL. See id. at 16; LOA 91 (Ex. 3) Att. B at 20; see also MDA Update from ALPA Members Services Committee (“MDA Update”) at 27 (“Of [the MDA] pilots, 225 of them are prior mainline division pilots . . . while the other 100 flowed up from Allegheny and Piedmont” via the CEL), attached as Exhibit 4.
As it turned out, MDA operated only a short time, and it never obtained an operating certificate and never finalized a collective bargaining agreement with its pilots. In March 2005, Holdings agreed to sell MDA’s fleet and other assets, and it completed that transaction over the course of a year. When the asset transfer was complete, MDA ceased its operations entirely. While MDA was flying, because it never received an operating certificate, MDA was operated as an internal operating division of US Airways. See System Board (Ex. 2) at 9-10.
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Although the MDA pilots never finalized a separate CBA, their wages and benefits were independent of, and less generous than, the US Airways pilots’ wages and benefits. The MDA pilots’ wages, benefits, and work rules were set by an LOA between ALPA and US Airways to be equal to the AA Eagle pilots’ agreement in effect in January 2003, plus 2% increases yearly. See LOA 84 at 9, attached as Exhibit 5; see also MDA Update (Ex. 4) at 28 (stating that “restructuring agreements brought the bulk of the American Eagle contract over to govern the working conditions at MDA” although “ome sections from mainline came over to replace the applicable Eagle sections”).2
The US Airways and MDA pilot seniority lists were also independent of one another. Furloughed US Airways pilots flying for MDA were recorded as on furlough on the US Airways seniority list, and CEL pilots flying for MDA were not included on the US Airways seniority list at all. See US Airways 2004 Pilot Seniority List (seniority numbers 3703-end), excerpts attached as Exhibit 6; US Airways 2005 Pilot Seniority List (seniority numbers 3538-end), excerpts attached as Exhibit 7. 3 MDA, for its part, had its own separate pilot seniority list. See Mid- Atlantic Seniority List, January 11, 2005, attached as Exhibit 8.
Because MDA and US Airways were separate operations with separate seniority systems, their pilot bidding processes were entirely distinct. Active Mainline pilots were not permitted to
2 Other facets of the MDA operation were separate from US Airways as well. MDA had separate labor agreements with its flight attendants, dispatchers, and mechanics, and also maintained its own fleet, flight simulator, office space, management, hangar, computer system, and crew scheduler, among other things. See System Board (Ex. 2) at 21.
3 Because these seniority lists are quite long, we attach only the cited pages. As discussed below, see infra at 11, after being pressed by the East MEC, the Company subsequently issued a “correction” to the 2005 seniority list, which showed the furloughed Mainline pilots flying for MDA as active pilots and added the CEL pilots at MDA to the Mainline seniority list.
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bid MDA positions. See Restructuring Agreement (Ex. 1) at 7-8.4 A US Airways pilot who took a position with MDA could return to US Airways Mainline flying only if recalled from furlough. See id. at 8; LOA 91 (Ex. 3) Att. B at 13. Furloughed US Airways pilots who took positions at MDA were not “recalled” to these positions in accordance with § 23 of the US Airways CBA, but rather were awarded positions at MDA through separate MDA pilot bidding, under the rules set forth in the Restructuring Agreement and subsequent LOAs. Compare US Airways Agreement with ALPA (“East CBA”) § 23(I), excerpts attached as Exhibit 9, with Restructuring Agreement (Ex. 1) at 7-8. And, critically, as they became furloughed from US Airways, they could not bump working MDA pilots, a normal right on a normal seniority list, but could only bid for vacancies. See LOA 93 at 14, attached as Exhibit 10. After taking positions at MDA, these furloughed US Airways pilots continued to be treated as furloughed by US Airways, remaining eligible for furlough recall and continuing to receive furlough pay (offset by MDA earnings). See LOA 84 (Ex. 5) at 9; LOA 91 (Ex. 3) Att. B at 13.
Although furloughed US Airways Mainline pilots on the APL were entitled to claim an MDA vacancy, they also were permitted to bypass MDA pilot positions without consequence, as illustrated by the many furloughed US Airways pilots interspersed with those shown as active MDA pilots on the East Committee’s seniority list. See LOA 91 (Ex. 3) Att. B at 13; East Mediation Statement Ex. 3. However, US Airways pilots who bypass recall to Mainline duty may forfeit their seniority and recall rights under some circumstances. See East CBA (Ex. 9) § 23(I)4. If US Airways and MDA pilots were one pilot group, the Company simply could have recalled US Airways pilots to MDA jobs instead of giving them the option to either remain on furlough and receive furlough pay or take positions at MDA. It did not, but rather chose to hire
4 There was a small exception to this rule – a US Airways pilot could move to MDA without being furloughed if doing so would prevent the furlough of another US Airways pilot junior to that pilot. See Restructuring Agreement (Ex. 1) at 8.
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pilots off the CEL to fly at MDA, and thereby – according to the East Committee – earn a place as an active pilot on the US Airways pilot seniority list while nearly two thousand US Airways pilots with many years of seniority remained on furlough.
Finally, it bears mention that the CEL pilots were hired through an entirely separate process from the US Airways pilots. CEL pilots were hired by the wholly-owned commuter carriers that feed into the US Airways system. Major carriers typically require significantly greater flight experience than regional carriers, and they receive far more applications for pilot positions because of their larger equipment and higher pay. The CEL pilots that the East Committee wishes to place on the US Airways seniority list were not hired by US Airways (other than through their claim to MDA positions), and there is no evidence that they would have been qualified for pilot positions at US Airways.
MDA Was Intended To Be and Was Operated Separately from the US Airways Mainline, Including Operating with a Separate Pilot Seniority List
The 2002 Restructuring Agreement that permitted MDA to operate as a US Airways Express carrier makes clear that MDA was intended to operate separately from US Airways, as a wholly-owned independent airline subsidiary of Holdings with its own operating certificate,
4
fleet, collective bargaining agreement (“CBA”), and pilot force with its own bidding and seniority system. See Restructuring Agreement (Ex. 1) at 14-16; System Board (Ex. 2) at 9-10. For example, the Restructuring Agreement states that “MDA management and ALPA’s designees will expeditiously negotiate a labor agreement.” See Restructuring Agreement (Ex. 1) at 14, 74. The Restructuring Agreement states clearly that MDA will have its own seniority list: “Pilots on the MDA seniority list will perform: All flying by and for MDA” and MDA pilots would be the source of MDA’s own training and check airmen. See id. at 14-15 (emphasis added). Moreover, the Restructuring Agreement linguistically differentiated between US Airways and MDA (and their respective pilots) throughout. See generally Restructuring Agreement. For example, in the Restructuring Agreement, as later in LOA 91, see infra at 9, the parties agreed that “US Airways pilots in order of US Airways pilot seniority” would be first on the “MDA Pilots’ System Seniority List” followed by pilots who came to MDA from other wholly-owned carriers via the CEL. See id. at 16; LOA 91 (Ex. 3) Att. B at 20; see also MDA Update from ALPA Members Services Committee (“MDA Update”) at 27 (“Of [the MDA] pilots, 225 of them are prior mainline division pilots . . . while the other 100 flowed up from Allegheny and Piedmont” via the CEL), attached as Exhibit 4.
As it turned out, MDA operated only a short time, and it never obtained an operating certificate and never finalized a collective bargaining agreement with its pilots. In March 2005, Holdings agreed to sell MDA’s fleet and other assets, and it completed that transaction over the course of a year. When the asset transfer was complete, MDA ceased its operations entirely. While MDA was flying, because it never received an operating certificate, MDA was operated as an internal operating division of US Airways. See System Board (Ex. 2) at 9-10.
5
Although the MDA pilots never finalized a separate CBA, their wages and benefits were independent of, and less generous than, the US Airways pilots’ wages and benefits. The MDA pilots’ wages, benefits, and work rules were set by an LOA between ALPA and US Airways to be equal to the AA Eagle pilots’ agreement in effect in January 2003, plus 2% increases yearly. See LOA 84 at 9, attached as Exhibit 5; see also MDA Update (Ex. 4) at 28 (stating that “restructuring agreements brought the bulk of the American Eagle contract over to govern the working conditions at MDA” although “
The US Airways and MDA pilot seniority lists were also independent of one another. Furloughed US Airways pilots flying for MDA were recorded as on furlough on the US Airways seniority list, and CEL pilots flying for MDA were not included on the US Airways seniority list at all. See US Airways 2004 Pilot Seniority List (seniority numbers 3703-end), excerpts attached as Exhibit 6; US Airways 2005 Pilot Seniority List (seniority numbers 3538-end), excerpts attached as Exhibit 7. 3 MDA, for its part, had its own separate pilot seniority list. See Mid- Atlantic Seniority List, January 11, 2005, attached as Exhibit 8.
Because MDA and US Airways were separate operations with separate seniority systems, their pilot bidding processes were entirely distinct. Active Mainline pilots were not permitted to
2 Other facets of the MDA operation were separate from US Airways as well. MDA had separate labor agreements with its flight attendants, dispatchers, and mechanics, and also maintained its own fleet, flight simulator, office space, management, hangar, computer system, and crew scheduler, among other things. See System Board (Ex. 2) at 21.
3 Because these seniority lists are quite long, we attach only the cited pages. As discussed below, see infra at 11, after being pressed by the East MEC, the Company subsequently issued a “correction” to the 2005 seniority list, which showed the furloughed Mainline pilots flying for MDA as active pilots and added the CEL pilots at MDA to the Mainline seniority list.
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bid MDA positions. See Restructuring Agreement (Ex. 1) at 7-8.4 A US Airways pilot who took a position with MDA could return to US Airways Mainline flying only if recalled from furlough. See id. at 8; LOA 91 (Ex. 3) Att. B at 13. Furloughed US Airways pilots who took positions at MDA were not “recalled” to these positions in accordance with § 23 of the US Airways CBA, but rather were awarded positions at MDA through separate MDA pilot bidding, under the rules set forth in the Restructuring Agreement and subsequent LOAs. Compare US Airways Agreement with ALPA (“East CBA”) § 23(I), excerpts attached as Exhibit 9, with Restructuring Agreement (Ex. 1) at 7-8. And, critically, as they became furloughed from US Airways, they could not bump working MDA pilots, a normal right on a normal seniority list, but could only bid for vacancies. See LOA 93 at 14, attached as Exhibit 10. After taking positions at MDA, these furloughed US Airways pilots continued to be treated as furloughed by US Airways, remaining eligible for furlough recall and continuing to receive furlough pay (offset by MDA earnings). See LOA 84 (Ex. 5) at 9; LOA 91 (Ex. 3) Att. B at 13.
Although furloughed US Airways Mainline pilots on the APL were entitled to claim an MDA vacancy, they also were permitted to bypass MDA pilot positions without consequence, as illustrated by the many furloughed US Airways pilots interspersed with those shown as active MDA pilots on the East Committee’s seniority list. See LOA 91 (Ex. 3) Att. B at 13; East Mediation Statement Ex. 3. However, US Airways pilots who bypass recall to Mainline duty may forfeit their seniority and recall rights under some circumstances. See East CBA (Ex. 9) § 23(I)4. If US Airways and MDA pilots were one pilot group, the Company simply could have recalled US Airways pilots to MDA jobs instead of giving them the option to either remain on furlough and receive furlough pay or take positions at MDA. It did not, but rather chose to hire
4 There was a small exception to this rule – a US Airways pilot could move to MDA without being furloughed if doing so would prevent the furlough of another US Airways pilot junior to that pilot. See Restructuring Agreement (Ex. 1) at 8.
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pilots off the CEL to fly at MDA, and thereby – according to the East Committee – earn a place as an active pilot on the US Airways pilot seniority list while nearly two thousand US Airways pilots with many years of seniority remained on furlough.
Finally, it bears mention that the CEL pilots were hired through an entirely separate process from the US Airways pilots. CEL pilots were hired by the wholly-owned commuter carriers that feed into the US Airways system. Major carriers typically require significantly greater flight experience than regional carriers, and they receive far more applications for pilot positions because of their larger equipment and higher pay. The CEL pilots that the East Committee wishes to place on the US Airways seniority list were not hired by US Airways (other than through their claim to MDA positions), and there is no evidence that they would have been qualified for pilot positions at US Airways.
cactusboy53
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Apparently you weren't paying attention when you were so wrapped around the axle about the Nic (again). Here's what they said in the introduction:
In the early days of our merger, there was an undeniable spirit of East/West unity. Together we were destined for great objectives, working together to bring about an "industry leading" labor contract and making the US Airways a great place to work. As your next president and vice-president, it is our goal to rekindle that relationship.
The reality of our situation is simply this: pilot unity and an industry-leading labor contract will NOT be possible until East/West seniority issue is put to rest.
We are offering a no-nonsense, straight forward solution to our problem. As your next president and vice-president, we will implement the arbitration award to pursue an industry-leading contract.
If you are looking for true change and you desire honesty, integrity, and decisions based on the greater good for all US Airways pilots, we respectfully ask for your vote. As your next president and vice-president, we will work diligently for the success and prosperity for all US Airways pilots.
Lurkers: If you are ready for a new contract and tired of the hatin', don't you think it's time for a change? Take the time to read and hear what Eric & Jeff have to say. Informed is armed, and there is plenty of FACTUAL information to be had by Eric & Jeff.
If you really want an end game then vote logically. If you want to have status quo on pay, a LITTLE more delay with the same ultimate seniority result....well, you know what to do......vote angry.
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