US Pilots Labor Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

<snip>
East pilots are concerened with the following in no particular order. Loss of the attrition that they waited 20+ years for, MDA pilots issues, being placed below much younger pilots which will keep them in the right seat to retirement, 1/3 of the east list will be voting to put 1600 people above them if they vote for Eric, etc etc.
<snip>

But what in this list can realistically be changed? I'm not talking about ratifying a TA with the NIC, I'm asking what any candidate can realistically do to negate the east concerns about the NIC being the only list that can be used to gain any improvements in the JCBA whatsoever. As delusional and narcissistic as Cleary is, even he seems to have, perhaps, come the the realization that chasing a non-NIC solution is a lost cause. He met with EF to beg for a redo and had the USAPA legal counsel petition judge Silver for the same. Then he decides not to run for re-election. No matter how you slice it that doesn't exude much confidence that USAPA will be successful in defending its S22 "free to negotiate" position in federal court. So if top guy at USAPA with all of his inside information and privileged client-attorney information is showing public signs of total defeat on this issue, then it ought to be clear where this is very likely heading. So the question for any candidate should not be "what are you going to do about the NIC?", but "what will your strategy be if USAPA is compelled to accept the NIC and also has a statutory duty by way of the RLA to negotiate for a JCBA in order to avoid the company being released to self-help or having the POTUS cram down his solution on us if our fight reaches the Oval Office?" Fighting the NIC at this point makes about as much sense as trying to fight the sun from coming over the horizon tomorrow - IMO.

 

[nic4us]

Nonic,

It will be hilarious watching the likes of you convincing any potential merger group that Dave Odell (sp) should be inserted per the Nic.

FA

I will not be convincing anybody.

You do realize that income is a factor here right? Being that we,,,east and West,,,but particularly east,,,are paid so far below our peers that in a merger the other group is going to insist that Dave Odell goes below every one of their pilots and very near the bottom of a combined list, exactly one number above Coello.

In a merger we are all going to be inserted into a combined list via the Nic. You east morons have all but guaranteed that we will likely go below the majority of any potential merger partner's pilots.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Here's what you wrote, in quotation marks, indicating I said it:

"It's the same east "don't look at where we were then, look at where we are after getting most of the benefits of the merger."

Since when is your name "east" (no, the quote marks don't indicate that I'm quoting you. There's a quote function for that). I used them to delineate a paraphrasing of what you and your pals often say from the part of the sentence that was my words.

Ergo, you provided the proof that you said what you said when you said that I quoted you saying it...

Jim

 

[OTTER574]

Is there a point in there?

I've never said it wasn't coming. Maybe notes or something could help you when you decide to jump in every few months. Something.

brat...I get my information from honest PILOTS/REP's and my legal team. Most REP's don't like my very direct questions I have had with my former and current union. I have other venues for information in regards to this. I find this board amusing to say the least, most of which is you....amusing that is. You taking one line out of a comment I made to CG and is.....how should I say this brat...so much YOU.

Funny thing is brat, the west fired/recalled it's alpa REP'S...oh, about every 6 months on average if we as a pilot group were not satisfied with the direction of our union. How many times did the east fire/recalled it's reps? (alpa or usapa)

brat, of course you're satisfied with the lack of progress and usapa's direction spending millions of our dues for a lost fight? Right, I thought so.

OTTER

 

[nic4us]

Under Nic....close DCA.... Lot's of Sr. DCA Captains displace West Captains out of their jobs and crew base. Are you sure this is what you want?

Ummm....DCA might close with a new joint contract,,,,,and I have met an east DCA captain who lives in PHX,,,,

He is quite welcome to come to PHX and hold whatever position his Nic number affords him.

Also, during a displacement bid, it is all fair game, so if Move2CLT actually does move to CLT, we will have room for the DCA guy in PHX.


As a matter of fact, we will trade you one DCA guy, no matter how senior, for Move2CLT. just kidding Move2!!!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Yes Jim it is talked about, I have seen the MDA hose job come up in several conversations in the crew room and how the guys got boned.

I didn't mean to imply that MDA didn't come up - I'm sure it comes up as another thing this mythical all-powerful ALPA did to the US pilots. I meant that the people that "boned" the MDA folks are still on the property and some of them in positions of power in USAPA. If you just look at the percentages, over half the east participants here "boned" the MDA folks repeatedly but now sing their sad song about how the omnipotent ALPA wronged those MDA folks. You could be one of those...

Jim

 

[fifidriver]

Well, we can go back to why Nic did the WB like he did if we had no career expectations, I didn't see any of you guys address that point last night. I guess you guys could argue that since he put all F/O positions on top too, they are favorable.

If you look at the E170 vs the rest of the fleet in just a static top of scale view, no it's not too good. But if you look at it from where everyone was at PID as you suggest, you don't think Dave Odell wouldn't have bid left seat on it vs. right seat on the 737? Wasn't Colello's pay, schedules, vacation much more desirable than Odell's? Haven't you guys advocated looking at all those things as the basis for the slot?

With the other things Nic did he very well may have still put all the 170 positions below Odell. Heck, he put all the 330 and 76I worth of slots on top, even though the bottom 76I position is not favorable to the top A320 capt. Bizzare, IMHO.

Career expectation was not the sole criterion used in the compilation of the NIC. If it was he would have just stapled the East.

 

[nic4us]

I'd have to say the sign is a good likeness of you......

Here's what you wrote, in quotation marks, indicating I said it:

"It's the same east "don't look at where we were then, look at where we are after getting most of the benefits of the merger."

I can assure you, I never said that, hence the proof request. You like to put words in other people's mouths when protesting the same.

Hold on a second here Pi.

Your biggest gripe has been that with the Nic, West pilots relative position gains over time. In order to prove this, you reference the Nic positions over time with the POST-MERGER stand alone data over time.

That sure seems like you want to compare positions after getting the benefits of the merger.

 

[Pi brat]

Since when is your name "east" (no, the quote marks don't indicate that I'm quoting you. There's a quote function for that). I used them to delineate a paraphrasing of what you and your pals often say from the part of the sentence that was my words.

Ergo, you provided the proof that you said what you said when you said that I quoted you saying it...

Jim

Have you taken up sniffing glue?

 

[cleardirect]

Ok, tell me then, what in Eric's platform is going to do anything to address the issues that the east pilots have about our current situation?

East pilots are concerened with the following in no particular order. Loss of the attrition that they waited 20+ years for, MDA pilots issues, being placed below much younger pilots which will keep them in the right seat to retirement, 1/3 of the east list will be voting to put 1600 people above them if they vote for Eric, etc etc.

About the only thing the two camps have in common is trying to get more pay, but unless Eric can guarantee that the right seat is going to pay what the LOA 93 left seat pays now he is barking up the wrong tree since a huge number of voters will be voting themselves into the right seat for many years to come if they are young enough, or right seat until retirement if they not young enough.

AOL can pretend that no one exists below those slotted in on the NIC list and say "Nobody got stapled" etc. But the pure fact of the matter is 1/3 of the east guys see it that way, and the other 2/3 see it almost as bad as that.

Nothing that Eric has said or done has even remotly addressed what it is that the east pilots care about. I have seen east pilots on here try to address west issues, DOH, PHX drawdown worries etc. Not once can I remember a west pilot or candidate even mentioning what it is that is driving the east to take the actions they are taking. Instead it is a constant barrage of "Scab" "Scumbag" Pissed off looks in terminals and hotels, snide comments in crewvans etc.

Given that enviornment, how good of a chance do you think the west agenda has of getting many east guys to vote for it?

I know the response this post will get from many on here. It is expected and will further solidify for me the fact that any vote for Eric in this campaign will be a vote to completly screw me(top 2/3) and those junior to me(bottom 1/3).

All of your “issues” are seniority related.
Attrition
MDA pilots
Furloughed pilots
Younger pilots
Stuck in the right seat
1600 west pilots

All have to do with seniority. We did that, it was called arbitration. Eric’s position on the Nicolau is very clear. That issue is done and will be put to bed very soon.

You east pilots have had 7 years to fix the problems. 4 years of complete east control and you guys have accomplished nothing. Parked negotiations, injunction, infighting, wild spending on lawyers, no respect or prospect of every getting a contract with the current leadership and that would include McKee if he wins. You are no closer to a contract then before. So if you are happy at $85 in the right seat so be it. If you are happy with $125 in the left seat so be it. The Nicolau delays the east no more than 2 years by your own numbers guy. Live with LOA 93 I don’t care.

Eric has the ability to get us to a contract. To pay f/o’s $125 I don’t think is going to happen no matter who you vote for. But $100-$110 is possible. You can accept that or live at $85, your choice.

Eric is a different direction because so far the direction and tactics of usapa so have not been working.

BTW not once have any east pilots addressed west issues. The C&R do nothing to stop or slow the harm to west pilots. Shrinking PHX the C&R say NOTHING except DOH deal with I,t to bad so sad, we are the majority.

You are completely screwed now. LOA 93 to retirement. Besides going into the next merger with a much better funded, organized and larger group who would you rather have running this union. Bill McKee the Cleary puppet or Eric the guy that has demonstrated for the last 4 years how to kick the bigger better funded organizations ass?

Nicolau is coming. It should have been here 4 years ago. So do you want the Nicolau with poor leadership trying to get you a contract and leading during a merger or do you want Eric and great leadership during the next merger getting you a better contract?

 

[Pi brat]

Hold on a second here Pi.

Your biggest gripe has been that with the Nic, West pilots relative position gains over time. In order to prove this, you reference the Nic positions with the POST-MERGER

Read the whole sentence Nic. "don't look at where we were then" I never said that. You have to have a starting point, a baseline. I just think that how you would progress on your list should be one of the metrics. The majority of the west gets gains ahead of where they would on west stand alone while the majority of the east gets their forward progress lessened. That is a fact.

Now, what about my questions about Nic protecting the top 517, but not the rest? If our career expectations were to "be liquidated" we all had the same career expectations, right? Yet he gave them, and a certain west pilot his ready to cash in on, a potential windfall in PHX.

 

[Pi brat]

brat...I get my information from honest PILOTS/REP's and my legal team. Most REP's don't like my very direct questions I have had with my former and current union. I have other venues for information in regards to this. I find this board amusing to say the least, most of which is you....amusing that is. You taking one line out of a comment I made to CG and is.....how should I say this brat...so much YOU.

Funny thing is brat, the west fired/recalled it's alpa REP'S...oh, about every 6 months on average if we as a pilot group were not satisfied with the direction of our union. How many times did the east fire/recalled it's reps? (alpa or usapa)

brat, of course you're satisfied with the lack of progress and usapa's direction spending millions of our dues for a lost fight? Right, I thought so.

OTTER

I absolutely cannot follow that post and I have lost the will to try. Are you related a certain east poster?

As for the last sentence, I got that. No, I'm not happy with the road we have taken.

 

[Pi brat]

Eric has the ability to get us to a contract.

How? I have been waiting for an answer on this and haven't gotten a single thing. You have the floor.

 

[OTTER574]

Have you taken up sniffing glue?

Is there a point in there?

OTTER

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Have you taken up sniffing glue?

Jim and ClearD must be sharing the same tube! MM!