US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

That you would put me up there with MSU shows you aren't paying attention.

You want to tackle that whole top of the east list thing about career expectations, if not then move along.

Don't get the GI thing, pm if you want me to.

Are you a F/A or pilot?

Wait a minute!! How did you get compared to me!?!?

What did you say to get such a high compliment?

 

[cleardirect]

I imagine that every Israeli and every Palestinian that lashed out at one another in anger truly felt they had the moral high ground.

Yes but one group thinks it is moral to walk into a public space and detonate a bomb to kill women, children and random citizens. The rest of the world does not see that as moral.

Do we all individually get to decide what is moral and live by that?

 

[fatherabraham]

I'm more of a "make your bed and lie in it" and "reap what you sow" type of guy to be honest.

Boo Boo,

Who you be quoting there ?
http://bible.cc/galatians/6-7.htm

FA

 

[CallawayGolf]

I have no influence with current union leaders. What I might have had got burned with my defense of the C18. That doesn't stop me from trying or voicing my opinion in the hopes that something, even a tiny little thing will sink in some day. I've tried to figure out which candidate would be the best, but to be honest I don't have much faith in any of them right now. They are still trying to win the war.

You can do that too. But to do that you have to stop seeing the other side as the enemy. I do not see the west as the enemy.

I don't view the east as an enemy, but I think that a substantial number of pilots on both sides do feel that way. I'm as open and objective in this situation as I possibly can be, but the preponderance of fault lies with the east die hards. Any attempt to replace the NIC by force of the majority is illegal in my limited understanding of the RLA and it is immoral by any definition or standard of ethics because it boils down to an attempt to break a binding agreement which will knowingly and certainly bring harm to the other party (the west). I don't think it demonstrates a bias to read the RLA and all of the court filings related to this situation and conclude that USAPA is on the wrong side of the law. Furthermore, if you could find place where I situationally applied my standard that breaking an agreement without the other party's consent is perfectly moral in one circumstance but immoral in this circumstance you would certainly have proof that I was biased. Instead you have my direct statement that I think it is immoral and wrong in every circumstance (under true duress might be one possible exception I would consider).

IMO only the east can fix this situation outside of a federal court. However, I don't see any evidence that anyone in or seeking USAPA leadership is willing to admit this. If there were an east ticket that held that changing the NIC without west consent (impossible now) is both illegal (DFR) and immoral and that they were going to stop the seniority fight by immediately closing out S22 with the NIC, then I would strongly consider offering them my endorsement. Since I haven't seen where any east President/VP ticket has taken that position, then it seems like not much has changed out east and they are willing to let a third party decide their fate once again rather than taking control and taking a stand for what is right, even if it means a less than favorable outcome for some on the east. That's what leaders do. Letting a court or an arbitrator decide your fate is not leadership. Pushing an immoral but popular viewpoint is not leadership it is feeding on the ignorance and immorality of the majority.

 

[prechilill]

I don't view the east as an enemy, but I think that a substantial number of pilots on both sides do feel that way. I'm as open and objective in this situation as I possibly can be, but the preponderance of fault lies with the east die hards. Any attempt to replace the NIC by force of the majority is illegal in my limited understanding of the RLA and it is immoral by any definition or standard of ethics because it boils down to an attempt to break a binding agreement which will knowingly and certainly bring harm to the other party (the west). I don't think it demonstrates a bias to read the RLA and all of the court filings related to this situation and conclude that USAPA is on the wrong side of the law. Furthermore, if you could find place where I situationally applied my standard that breaking an agreement is perfectly moral in one circumstance but immoral in this circumstance you would certainly have proof that I was biased. Instead you have my direct statement that I think it is immoral and wrong in every circumstance (under true duress might be one possible exception I would consider).

IMO only the east can fix this situation outside of a federal court. However, I don't see any evidence that anyone in or seeking USAPA leadership is willing to admit this. If there were an east ticket that held that changing the NIC without west consent (impossible now) is both illegal (DFR) and immoral and that they were going to stop the seniority fight by immediately closing out S22 with the NIC, then I would strongly consider offering them my endorsement. Since I haven't seen where any east President/VP ticket has taken that position, then it seems like not much has changed out east and they are willing to let a third party decide their fate once again rather than taking control and taking a stand for what is right, even if it means a less than favorable outcome for some on the east. That's what leaders do. Letting a court or an arbitrator decide your fate is not leadership. Pushing an immoral but popular viewpoint is not leadership it is feeding on the ignorance and immorality of the majority.

Outstanding post.

 

[Pi brat]

Here is your chance. The elections are open. For the last 4 years east pilots have been in charge. Can they do any worse they what we have now? You guys have all seen how unified the west is lined up behind EF and the rest of the west leadership. If they can bring 10% of that to the entire group we will have 10% more than we have now.

Can they do any worse? I don't know, but we can just get a mirror image of what we have been doing, just the west version.

I've struggling with this. But I do not see the solution in what the west candidates are saying. I think both sides are trying to read the political winds.

 

[Pi brat]

Wait a minute!! How did you get compared to me!?!?

I don't know but I'm going to try and clean up my act so it doesn't happen again.

Sometimes I forget that a snarky personality comes off as something else on a board when people are tuning in and out. I'm as guilty of not reading things right as anyone.

 

[Pi brat]

Yes but one group thinks it is moral to walk into a public space and detonate a bomb to kill women, children and random citizens. The rest of the world does not see that as moral.

Do we all individually get to decide what is moral and live by that?

First, let's be clear, nothing that has happened between us rises to that level. But actually a lot of the world does see it as moral. A lot of the world runs on an "ends justifies the means" attitude. Because we are not killing one another, many of our group use just that line of thinking.

In the end we absolutely individually decide what is moral and live by that. It's just that the society we live in might not agree and deal with you if you do something that doesn't fit the collective moral code. Things happen in Afghanistan that we wouldn't stand for. Things appear on our TVs that would get you whipped in other countries.

I think what you mean is that we put a high priority on following through on agreements and binding arbitration has strong support in this country. That's true, but we also break contracts, agreements and "binding contracts" in this country ever day. Donald Trump is held up by many as a hero, but how many times has he employed methods to get around agreements. How many of us have gotten out of a "binding" marriage. Sometimes there are good reasons, sometimes there are not and I believe that is the real question.

Jeff Koontz compares our problems to divorce. Having been through a divorce I don't really see it that way. I see it more as like being in a shotgun marriage, having you house underwater, having issues that even with counseling you cannot come to terms with, but because of your situation you CAN'T get divorced. You are stuck and the answers you have been trying are not working.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Woman comes home from shopping, her husband is sitting on the sofa, tears running down his cheeks, sobbing uncontrollably.

She says:

Honey, what's wrong? Why are you crying?

It's nothing, I'll be okay in a minute.

No... it's not okay. Something happened, you're upset, please tell me what it is.

Well......remember when you're father came to me twenty years ago, carrying a shotgun and said 'you either marry my daughter, or you're going to jail'?

Yes.....yes I remember that day. Why is that bothering you?

Well......today is the day I would have gotten out of jail.

 

[Move2CLT]

I don't know but I'm going to try and clean up my act so it doesn't happen again.

Why would you do that? You've hit the big times now. You're in the major league of posting!

You're welcome.

 

[Move2CLT]

Boo Boo,

Who you be quoting there ?
http://bible.cc/galatians/6-7.htm

FA

You and this board have helped me find Jesus. Thank you.

LMAO.

 

[fatherabraham]

You and this board have helped me find Jesus. Thank you.

LMAO.

Boo Boo,
Was that an answer to my question?
Seems an appropriate enuf question since you made the quote.
Here's another question to skirt around.......... Was the LMAO a mocking of the " quote " you live by or were you dishonest in your " type of guy " quote?

FA

 

[fifidriver]

I imagine that every Israeli and every Palestinian that lashed out at one another in anger truly felt they had the moral high ground.

I think that CG's got you in the long run. Isaiah 14 predicts the Palestinian demise.

 

[Move2CLT]

Boo Boo,
Was that an answer to my question?
Seems an appropriate enuf question since you made the quote.
Here's another question to skirt around.......... Was the LMAO a mocking of the " quote " you live by or were you dishonest in your " type of guy " quote?

FA

No book boo Jesus freak, I wasn't quoting the bible. I believe in accountability and those quotes are quite commonly used.

If you think the bible has copyright on them then I've got some penny stocks for you to invest on as well.

FYI, accountability is when you live with your decision. What do you think Jesus would think of you?

 

[Move2CLT]

And the LMAO was me mocking you.

I thought that was obvious but then again you're an eastie.