US Pilots Labor Discussion

[fifidriver]

You left this one out:

a : a contemptible person b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union.

I think that covers one of the prime scab launchers on this site.

You need to be drinking higher quality beverages.

Sorry. I thought that was understood with my "in addition to the traditional "union speak" of strike breaker". Just trying to utilize the bandwidth efficiently.

Thought you were the one that recommended the blue agave. Maybe too much of a good thing!

 

[Pi brat]

Thought you were the one that recommended the blue agave. Maybe too much of a good thing!

Oh yeah, but even they are not all the same. Thinking you got the lower end. ;-)

Even with the good stuff, it can be sneaky. Here is a good tutorial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i621z2r3Wo

 

[fifidriver]

Did you actually read the campaign letter posted a few pages back? The one I am assuming from "West" pilot candidates. It implies that East pilots should put themselves and their family before the group, which I am assuming is because the group mentality concept stands in the way of what you want. Funny that union, unity stuff and how it works. You implore people to cast it aside because in your view you have the righteous position and that at least in this instance trying to convince people to have an every man for himself, screw the group because its not your group interest and that might help you and your interest out at a specific moment in time. But somehow, the long lasting effects of acting in that way and the harm to unity it will do won't affect the future or the pursuit of an industry leading contract.(yeah right)

Sorry but people that have Scabbed have always fallen back on the, "I don't owe you anything, but I do owe my situation and family something" argument to rationalize breaking from the group. Real union winners there writing that letter and actually advocating that and thinking you will have a happy kumbaya union that will get anything from anyone.

Hello ROACLT.

I think that it is possible that the word "group" in your above post and in the missive that you reference, are not the same "group". That might clear up the seeming inconsistencies. Cheers!

 

[fifidriver]

Oh yeah, but even they are not all the same. Thinking you got the lower end. ;-)

Even with the good stuff, it can be sneaky. Here is a good tutorial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i621z2r3Wo

Thanks!!! Nice tutorial. Thx for the laugh.

 

[ROACLT]

Hello ROACLT.

I think that it is possible that the word "group" in your above post and in the missive that you reference, are not the same "group". That might clear up the seeming inconsistencies. Cheers!

No, no confusion. The implied message in that letter is to the East group to be "Self" interested, not group interested because that would help the letter writers win an election and the position they advocate on seniority. If you are so sure the courts will rule in your favor why fear them standing togther, why use the rhetoric of individual self interest to try politic your way into settling it. It's funny to see that rhetoric coming from people running for union office, it's an idea that is antithetical to unionism and the individual mentality present in those who have Scabbed, a word you like to throw about.

Don't come back with an argument that implies the strategy in that letter will lead down the primrose path to an industry leading contract. It would do anything but and the further breaking of Humpty Dumpty would at best lead to a crap contract with probably less job protections than you all have now. But maybe that's the real truth of it, the argument for an industry leading contract is a facade and its just about getting the seniority you want at any cost up to an including a terrible contract. That is what lies between the lines of that letter and unless I am mistaken, it will only insult the intelligence and anger the audience it was intended for.

 

[fodase]

The “Third-Listers’” Dilemma

Dear US Airways Pilots,



Of all the responses we have received in regard to our campaign materials, one group stands out because of the uniqueness of their concerns. That group would be the “Third-Listers.” On the bottom of both the Nicolau and USAPA’s proposed Date-of-Hire seniority list, their concerns appear to be centered around two topics: furlough protection in case of a merger, and the myth foisted upon them that the continuation of “Separate Operations” will result in a faster upgrade.



It is understandable why Third-Listers are concerned about USAPA’s DOH mandate in the event of a future merger, especially when merging with a carrier in bankruptcy like American which would bring several thousand furloughees to the seniority integration equation. Under USAPA’s DOH scheme, these furloughed pilots would go ahead of the Third-Listers, even though these LCC pilots bring actual jobs to the merger.



American currently has over 1600 pilots on furlough, the most senior of whom was hired in early 2000 and the most junior in 2004. AA recently announced another 400 furloughs, so the most senior AA furloughee will have a hire date much earlier than 2000. This would mean that furloughed AA pilots would not only be senior to all Third-Listers, the most senior AA furloughs would be senior to some 1000 East and West LCC pilots, increasing the risk that post-merger staffing reductions will be borne exclusively by LCC pilots who are currently actively employed. This scenario alone should be enough for every Third-Lister to support the Ferguson-Koontz-Holmes reform effort.



In addition, it appears that some candidates are courting the Third Listers’ vote insinuating that they would be better off under separate operations because it would result in a five-year upgrade for them. However, this statement is false and devoid of any connection to reality. Furthermore, USAPA and US Airways are obligated by the Railway Labor Act to, “…exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements concerning rates of pay, rules, and working conditions…” This is reinforced by the direct obligations of the Transition Agreement that likewise require the carrier and the union to seek a single contract for both pilot groups. Anything short of a joint contract improving the welfare of ALL US Airways pilots would result in yet another Hybrid-DFR against the company and the union by the West pilots.



Furthermore, it should be obvious that the price for separate operations is having to live and work indefinitely under LOA93. In addition, it assumes that our current situation continues unchanged for the next five-to-ten years, an assumption that, considering the current turmoil in the industry and world economy, seems highly unlikely. Most importantly, the real and legitimate Age 65 retirement numbers (not the fictitious ones being floated by some) clearly prove that the five-year upgrade is patently false.



There are various “retirement lists” floating around the Internet showing preposterous retirement numbers. One even shows 308 East retirement in 2012 alone, even though retirements don’t start until mid December, 2012. For the record, there are only twelve Age 65 retirements in 2012 (9 East and 3 West).



USAPA’s own website shows that there are currently about 500 pilots Age 60 and older at our airline. The total amount of Age 65 retirements through the end of 2015 is around 700, about 560 of which are East (and many of those are First Officer retirements).



Take into account that approximately 550 East First Officers could currently hold Captain positions but have decided to bypass upgrade, and it should become glaringly obvious that the “five-year upgrade” sales pitch is as reliable and accurate as the latest Loch Ness Monster sighting. In reality, the average Third-Lister will not upgrade under current conditions for about 8 1/2 – 10 years, whether under the Nicolau, DOH, or Separate Operations. (This assumes the United States doesn’t follow Canada’s recent lead and eliminate the mandatory retirement age altogether in the next year or so).



By now it should be clear that the Third-Listers (and all other US Airways pilots) will be best served by leadership that is willing to move forward and achieve a new and Industry-Leading contract and that will also fight to protect the careers of ALL US Airways pilots. This means there is only one choice: Ferguson/Koontz/Holmes.



Sincerely,



Eric Ferguson

Jeff Koontz

 

[cleardirect]

Did you actually read the campaign letter posted a few pages back? The one I am assuming from "West" pilot candidates. It implies that East pilots should put themselves and their family before the group, which I am assuming is because the group mentality concept stands in the way of what you want. Funny that union, unity stuff and how it works. You implore people to cast it aside because in your view you have the righteous position and that at least in this instance trying to convince people to have an every man for himself, screw the group because its not your group interest and that might help you and your interest out at a specific moment in time. But somehow, the long lasting effects of acting in that way and the harm to unity it will do won't affect the future or the pursuit of an industry leading contract.(yeah right)

Sorry but people that have Scabbed have always fallen back on the, "I don't owe you anything, but I do owe my situation and family something" argument to rationalize breaking from the group. Real union winners there writing that letter and actually advocating that and thinking you will have a happy kumbaya union that will get anything from anyone.

Currently how much unity do we have now? Can you name one thing that usapa has done to build or even start to create unity?

 

[luvn737s]

I will not turn to the dark side!

Um, somebody needs to explain something to you...

 

[fifidriver]

No, no confusion. The implied message in that letter is to the East group to be "Self" interested, not group interested because that would help the letter writers win an election and the position they advocate on seniority. If you are so sure the courts will rule in your favor why fear them standing togther, why use the rhetoric of individual self interest to try politic your way into settling it. It's funny to see that rhetoric coming from people running for union office, it's an idea that is antithetical to unionism and the individual mentality present in those who have Scabbed, a word you like to throw about.

Don't come back with an argument that implies the strategy in that letter will lead down the primrose path to an industry leading contract. It would do anything but and the further breaking of Humpty Dumpty would at best lead to a crap contract with probably less job protections than you all have now. But maybe that's the real truth of it, the argument for an industry leading contract is a facade and its just about getting the seniority you want at any cost up to an including a terrible contract. That is what lies between the lines of that letter and unless I am mistaken, it will only insult the intelligence and anger the audience it was intended for.

Maybe we are referring to two different letters. The letter that I am referring to is above and is to the "third listers". That is not the same "group" as the "East group". Good luck sorting out your conundrum!

I am quite sure that the eventual outcome of our little "disagreement" will be the NIC unadulterated. The thing that I fear is that if we elect two more idiots that continue down the path that Cleary and Mowrey have paved, we will have wasted the equivalent of their term limit. You having wasted the difference between a new contract and LOA93 and I having wasted the difference between a new contract and c2004. Speaking only for myself, the only improvement that is important to me is compensation. The rest of my contract to me is acceptable. From where I sit, the only door out of the cell that is LOA93 is the NIC, and it seems to me that the sooner "we" take the medicine, the sooner we can all move forward with the rest of our lives (careers).

I did not compose the letter that you reference, so I can not speak for it's intent. However, I can tell you that a large portion of the content that I put forward in this forum, is intended to "insult the intelligence and anger the audience" that it is intended for, in an altruistic effort to distill the issues or focus our sometimes myopic viewpoints. If you are truly offended, I apologize, but if I have sparked even one random neural firing; mission accomplished!

 

[Pi brat]

The “Third-Listers’” Dilemma

Dear US Airways Pilots,



Of all the responses we have received in regard to our campaign materials, one group stands out because of the uniqueness of their concerns. That group would be the “Third-Listers.” On the bottom of both the Nicolau and USAPA’s proposed Date-of-Hire seniority list, their concerns appear to be centered around two topics: furlough protection in case of a merger, and the myth foisted upon them that the continuation of “Separate Operations” will result in a faster upgrade.

There is no guarantee that our bottom of the list would not end up behind at least some of the AA furloughed pilots no matter what happens. Furloughed pilots have been placed ahead of active pilots. Brucia recommended it with ours. Here are some thoughts of a west pilot on the subject from Oct 2005, from this very board:

“Given my place, it won't make much of a difference whether there is a dovetail or longevity based integration. I suspect I'd end up right around the 90-91 hires. I'm a somewhat senior f/o by the way.”

Those guys he expected to be behind were furloughed at the time, but had high amounts of longevity. Not sure what kind of LOS the AA furloughed pilots have.

Nicolau gave a lot of credit for the value of our respective contracts. Given that the ask rates for AA entering bankruptcy are mostly higher than either of our contracts and what the company offer is, that doesn't bode well for us. I think that is why the AOL candidates stress industry leading. Good idea, just a few details missing on how they will get there while telling the majority to "eat it".

 

[cleardirect]

Thanks, you put it better than I did.

The east told the west "We are going to do this. Just come along and we will get you a contract, and you will see, it will be alright". The west didn't buy it, and fought tooth and nail against it. And they were the minority. How is saying the same thing, without a definitive answer from the courts, going to work with the east? You know, the majority.

Pi.

Silver is going to rule very quickly. Before the summer would be my bet. Once that is decided the company is done with this argument.

Once we have the answer we still have the officers for the next 3 years. What is McKee selling other than he will keep the Nicolau away? What happens if the courts tell us it is the Nicolau and the company says it is the Nicolau.

Will McKee or Hummel kill the ball and run the clock for 3 years? What is the plan after the court rules?

 

[Pi brat]

Pi.

Silver is going to rule very quickly. Before the summer would be my bet. Once that is decided the company is done with this argument.

Once we have the answer we still have the officers for the next 3 years. What is McKee selling other than he will keep the Nicolau away? What happens if the courts tell us it is the Nicolau and the company says it is the Nicolau.

Will McKee or Hummel kill the ball and run the clock for 3 years? What is the plan after the court rules?

McKee and Hummel are as different as Ferguson and McKee. I won't be voting for McKee. I like Bill personally, but he is a big part of our failures over the last few years. You only have to read the injunction to see that. I think if there is a definitive ruling on the Nic this summer Hummel will deal with it effectively.

 

[fatherabraham]

If you find the incontestable truth insulting than you're on your own. I don't care what you think. Not even a teeny little bit. You and your kind have easily cost my family well over 100k and I will never forget it. The only bright side is that you've probably cost yourselves triple that amount. Calling USAPA out on its blatant cowardice isn't name calling. It's fact. You guys couldnt have possibly F'ed this up more if you had hired professional failures. Party's over. Change is coming.

Res,
Well that was an improvement, only indirect insults above.
The opposing side has folk who believe exactly opposite of all above.
Yet, you would be hard pressed to find the type replies you are known for. If I were king, these post would not be anonymous .
Then I doubt you would be calling us scabs/cowards etc.

FA

 

[nic4us]

You left this one out:

a : a contemptible person b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union.

I think that covers one of the prime scab launchers on this site.

You need to be drinking higher quality beverages.

I don't think webster had usapa in mind as a "labor union".

labor union. noun. an organization of wage earners or salaried employees for
mutual aid and protection and for dealing collectively with employers; trade union.

But, if you think my refusing to join usapa makes me a scab, then by all means call me a scab.

Actually, the more I think of it, uscaba is not by any definition a "labor union".

Frankly, I cannot believe Ferguson and Koontz even want the positions. But, they are going to own usapa anyway, so you might as well make them the boss.

 

[Move2CLT]

. I think if there is a definitive ruling on the Nic this summer Hummel will deal with it effectively.

How do you think he will deal with it?