fatherabraham
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US Pilots Labor Discussion
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SparrowHawk
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He voted for Eric .
L
luvn737s
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The east's (USAPA's inner circle, I should say) strategy seems to be to flood the election with east candidates in the hope that Ferguson is shut out of a run off. Once he's eliminated, I doubt many will even care to vote in the runoff since they got their ABAW (Anyone But A Westy) .
Personally I think that strategy will, like all their previous ones, fail spectacularly. It will, however, set the stage for a representation election that, when combined with Silver's decision, will eliminate USAPA altogether.
Either a new chapter will be written with west leadership, or the epilog of USAPA.
Personally I think that strategy will, like all their previous ones, fail spectacularly. It will, however, set the stage for a representation election that, when combined with Silver's decision, will eliminate USAPA altogether.
Either a new chapter will be written with west leadership, or the epilog of USAPA.
lynyrdskynyrd
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There is vile on both sides of the aisle here, but EF doesn't do 'vile.' I had a conversation with him very early on in usapa's elected history. He was a Migs already, and had been from day one. He explained to me how in defending our west interests, he was determined to go about it the right way. There was no talk of destroying anything or anyone, and in fact he was repulsed by some of the things being said from some guys on our side. I myself became an early Mig, not solely as a result of that conversation, but largely because of it.
Phoenix
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SparrowHawk
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Sometimes this thread reminds me of this video clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--8Ju1jb8Bw
SparrowHawk
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What will the next merger look like?
Dear USAirways Pilots,
As the various merger rumors grow stronger, and the current USAPA leadership prefers to continue its pursuit of the ever more elusive DOH list through the courts, rather than concentrate on getting a contract, it would behoove us to see what a future merger might look like, especially if we merge while still under our current contracts.
There are only three likely merger possibilities: American, Delta and, to a lesser degree, United. USAPA’s merger policy requires the union to pursue a DOH-based integration but the other pilot groups are not bound by this policy. A merger with Delta or United would mean a return to ALPA, which would be required to accept the Nicolau while the APA’s merger policy calls for a “staple” of the other pilot group. Both of these policies are incompatible with USAPA’s DOH merger policy so the matter would go to Binding Arbitration as per the McCaskill/Bond act. Of course, we don’t have to remind anybody what happened the last time the USAirways pilots went to Arbitration unwilling to move off DOH.
The last three Pilot Seniority List Arbitrations in recent history have favored slotted integrations based on aircraft size, with minimal fences and adjustments for employment status and career expectations while the negotiated seniority list integration between Southwest and Airtran (where similar size a/c were involved) relied heavily on hourly wage rates and projected career earnings.
Let’s look at Delta, which has 167 widebodies and 192 B757s compared to USAirways 16 and 34 respectively. Replicating the arbitrated integration method used in the Delta/Northwest merger by Arbitrator Bloch (who used a method almost identical to the one used by George Nicolau), this would result in about 476 DAL 747/777 Captain positions on top of the list, followed by a 7:1 integration of 896 DAL A330/76-300/400 Captain positions and 128 LCC A330 positions and a 6.3:1 integration of DALs 1316 757/767-300 Captain positions with USAirways’ 209 positions. Under this method, of the first 3025 positions, 2688 would go to Delta and only 337 (11.1%) to LCC pilots.
However, this is where things could get sticky. Delta Widebody FOs have a higher hourly wage than LCC Group II and West Captains. ($154/hr for 74/77 FOs and $146/hr for A330/76-400 FOs), The Delta merger committee can be sure to argue that all their 757/767 Captains should go ahead of the USAirways Captains, while the approximately 1,000 DAL widebody FOs should be slotted in with the 209 East Group II / West Captains in order to prevent a “windfall” for the LCC pilots. Obviously, it remains to be seen if an Arbitrator would agree with that line of reasoning, but should he/she decide to take wages and expected career earnings into consideration, it could lead to Group 1 Captains slotted in with Delta 757 FOs ($129/hr) while all USAirways FOs could end up below 5th year Delta narrowbody FOs ($111//hr for a 5th year B737 FO). That is how ridiculously underpaid this pilot group is, and the gap grows larger every day.
According to Mike Cleary’s statement at the last PHL Domicile Meeting, a merger with American is “a question of when, not if”. We’ll see. But……American’s fleet composition resembles that of Delta (120 Widebodies, 124 B-757s), and even after the bankruptcy wage cut recently proposed by AA management, their pay will still be significantly higher than ours. A slotted integration adjusted for pay rates would greatly benefit the American pilots, in the same way it would benefit the Delta pilots, even though under USAPA’s DOH merger policy close to 2000 Furloughed AA pilots would be put ahead of, or slotted in with, currently employed LCC pilots hired between 1999 and 2004.
Clearly, facing another merger while working under our current bankruptcy/ATSB limited contracts, will be a recipe for disaster for all the USAirways pilots. The importance of merging with a recent contract containing at least industry standard wages was illustrated by the Airtran pilots voting in a new contract just prior to entering SLI negotiations with Southwest, which greatly improved their bargaining positions because of increased career earnings projections.
In order to maximize our bargaining position in a possible merger, and help ensure a bright future for all USAirways pilots, it is essential that we move forward NOW, not “when the courts decide”, several years from now. Closing your eyes to the challenges facing us in the very near future, or hoping for “fragmentation” will ultimately doom every pilot on the property.
None of the other candidates have a plan for dealing with these challenges now, so the choice is simple. Vote Ferguson/Koontz/Holmes and protect your family’s future.
Dear USAirways Pilots,
As the various merger rumors grow stronger, and the current USAPA leadership prefers to continue its pursuit of the ever more elusive DOH list through the courts, rather than concentrate on getting a contract, it would behoove us to see what a future merger might look like, especially if we merge while still under our current contracts.
There are only three likely merger possibilities: American, Delta and, to a lesser degree, United. USAPA’s merger policy requires the union to pursue a DOH-based integration but the other pilot groups are not bound by this policy. A merger with Delta or United would mean a return to ALPA, which would be required to accept the Nicolau while the APA’s merger policy calls for a “staple” of the other pilot group. Both of these policies are incompatible with USAPA’s DOH merger policy so the matter would go to Binding Arbitration as per the McCaskill/Bond act. Of course, we don’t have to remind anybody what happened the last time the USAirways pilots went to Arbitration unwilling to move off DOH.
The last three Pilot Seniority List Arbitrations in recent history have favored slotted integrations based on aircraft size, with minimal fences and adjustments for employment status and career expectations while the negotiated seniority list integration between Southwest and Airtran (where similar size a/c were involved) relied heavily on hourly wage rates and projected career earnings.
Let’s look at Delta, which has 167 widebodies and 192 B757s compared to USAirways 16 and 34 respectively. Replicating the arbitrated integration method used in the Delta/Northwest merger by Arbitrator Bloch (who used a method almost identical to the one used by George Nicolau), this would result in about 476 DAL 747/777 Captain positions on top of the list, followed by a 7:1 integration of 896 DAL A330/76-300/400 Captain positions and 128 LCC A330 positions and a 6.3:1 integration of DALs 1316 757/767-300 Captain positions with USAirways’ 209 positions. Under this method, of the first 3025 positions, 2688 would go to Delta and only 337 (11.1%) to LCC pilots.
However, this is where things could get sticky. Delta Widebody FOs have a higher hourly wage than LCC Group II and West Captains. ($154/hr for 74/77 FOs and $146/hr for A330/76-400 FOs), The Delta merger committee can be sure to argue that all their 757/767 Captains should go ahead of the USAirways Captains, while the approximately 1,000 DAL widebody FOs should be slotted in with the 209 East Group II / West Captains in order to prevent a “windfall” for the LCC pilots. Obviously, it remains to be seen if an Arbitrator would agree with that line of reasoning, but should he/she decide to take wages and expected career earnings into consideration, it could lead to Group 1 Captains slotted in with Delta 757 FOs ($129/hr) while all USAirways FOs could end up below 5th year Delta narrowbody FOs ($111//hr for a 5th year B737 FO). That is how ridiculously underpaid this pilot group is, and the gap grows larger every day.
According to Mike Cleary’s statement at the last PHL Domicile Meeting, a merger with American is “a question of when, not if”. We’ll see. But……American’s fleet composition resembles that of Delta (120 Widebodies, 124 B-757s), and even after the bankruptcy wage cut recently proposed by AA management, their pay will still be significantly higher than ours. A slotted integration adjusted for pay rates would greatly benefit the American pilots, in the same way it would benefit the Delta pilots, even though under USAPA’s DOH merger policy close to 2000 Furloughed AA pilots would be put ahead of, or slotted in with, currently employed LCC pilots hired between 1999 and 2004.
Clearly, facing another merger while working under our current bankruptcy/ATSB limited contracts, will be a recipe for disaster for all the USAirways pilots. The importance of merging with a recent contract containing at least industry standard wages was illustrated by the Airtran pilots voting in a new contract just prior to entering SLI negotiations with Southwest, which greatly improved their bargaining positions because of increased career earnings projections.
In order to maximize our bargaining position in a possible merger, and help ensure a bright future for all USAirways pilots, it is essential that we move forward NOW, not “when the courts decide”, several years from now. Closing your eyes to the challenges facing us in the very near future, or hoping for “fragmentation” will ultimately doom every pilot on the property.
None of the other candidates have a plan for dealing with these challenges now, so the choice is simple. Vote Ferguson/Koontz/Holmes and protect your family’s future.
nevergiveup
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No contract...no NIC...no matter who you vote for. Industry standard or liquidation, whichever comes first.
Res Judicata
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Ferguson/Koontz can get you an industry standard contract in 2012. If you think Nic. is bad, wait until what the now very agitated APA has in store for you.
Nic. is fair, equitable, final and binding. Barring mutual consent from east/west, Nothing from any court in the last 5 years has even begun to slightly indicate that's not true.
You guys went all in with USAPA. It didn't work. Either work the rest of your days with Captain rates below other Airline FO rates, or come to your senses and vote for the only sane choice.
Ferguson/Koontz.
L
luvn737s
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Unfortunately, you still don't understand that those are not the choices you are facing. You either grab the negotiating leverage that comes with a desire to merge, or you watch how a "fair" integration under M-B plays out. (Hint: it won't be pretty)
Or you might want to look at the Republic/ Midwest Express merger. M-B did not apply because the holding companies merged, not the airline. The MidEx pilots were hosed when their leader got rid of all the airplanes just prior to the merger consummating. The pilots were slotted into the MidEx/Frontier/Republic list based at least partly on the number of aircraft they brought to the merger. Which was ZERO. So while you might be hoping on M-B to protect your DOH scheme, you may very well wake up and find it's not there.
The time is coming when the east will need to unify with the west to protect thier common interests. Under Ferguson/Koontz you will begin to see that unity. Under McKleary you will see a madman scuttle the ship on the rocks and somehow blame ALPA.
Have you explained to the new hires who left senior positions and the security that came with them to join USAirways how your "industry standard or liquidation, whichever comes first" false bravado might affect them? You remember them, right? They're the ones that will vote in lockstep with you to bar the Nic.
Right?
YOU FORGOT "FRAGMENTATION", the likely scenerio,before "ANY CBA", !
Always Luv your "THREAD HIJACKS", now IRA songs, You have no trouble making ends meet SPARROWHAWK!. Your foot is always in your mouth! MM!
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