US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvn737s]

If Ferguson/Koontz were to win positions it would be very unlikely that there would be an industry standard contract this year. The company doesn't have to negotiate and will not negotiate in good faith until they are ready and they will be ready when they think they can jam something worse down our throats than LOA 93. They will more than likely succeed because this pilot group is too fragmented to fight the company. F&K would have no more success that USAPA.

I absolutely disagree 100%.

If Ferguson and Koontz won the election it would put Parker on notice that the era of divisiveness was ending and along with it his ability to extract BK wages. The only person that wants Eric and Jeff to lose more than McKee or JJ is Doug Parker.

The very fact that enough east coast pilots were fed up and swung their support to west candidates alone would be a massive turning point for this pilot group away from petty squabbles that have mired this pilot group down and towards a unified new future.

Remember this when you vote.

 

[luvn737s]

I found this one:

USAPA VP Candidate Jeff Koontz will be in Charlotte today to answer your questions. If you’re in CLT today between 3:00 and 5:15 PM, please stop by the Food Court and meet Jeff.

I got it wrong, I thought it was like :15 min. I don't remember any others.

Good!!

Put a face to the name and grill him well. That's the best way to eradicate blind prejudice and vote with an informed mind.

 

[Phoenix]

calling people "ahole" is real classy

The recipient of that moniker has vigorously campaigned for it and obviously takes pleasure in obtaining it. He'd be devastated if anyone (besides Uhaul) succeeded at mounting a viable challenge for the honor.

 

[Pi brat]

I absolutely disagree 100%.

If Ferguson and Koontz won the election it would put Parker on notice that the era of divisiveness was ending and along with it his ability to extract BK wages. The only person that wants Eric and Jeff to lose more than McKee or JJ is Doug Parker.

The very fact that enough east coast pilots were fed up and swung their support to west candidates alone would be a massive turning point for this pilot group away from petty squabbles that have mired this pilot group down and towards a unified new future.

Remember this when you vote.

I absolutely disagree 100%.

I think they see Ferguson as the ying to Cleary's yang, and that little circle has profited them more than guys that turn that circle into cool little stickers.

 

[CallawayGolf]

You weren't very clear. Do you think E.F. supports putting nearly half of East pilots below West furloughs and all so-called third listers on the very bottom?

I "think" EF supports implementation of the unmodified NIC award as the S22 list in any TA/JCBA that comes out of the negotiating process. Once that occurs everyone takes their rightful position per the result of binding arbitration that was settled on May 1, 2007. Obviously that means that the top east positions enjoy their NIC protections while the top west positions drop significantly in their seniority position on the list. Further down the list, those east pilots who were on furlough at the time of the merger will go below all east and west pilots who held an active position on the integrated seniority list. Because of the five-year or more delay in implementing the list, that means that those "third listers" who jumped ahead of their west counterparts will get back in line on at the same place they would have been had the NIC been implemented on May 2, 2007. The same holds true for west pilots who are now on furlough, meaning that they will also take their rightful seniority place ahead of those who were on furlough at the time of the merger, just as the binding arbitration award specifies.

Say you go on vacation for two weeks and squatters move into your house. When you return they claim you have no right to your own possession. They also claim that if you were to take your own house back that you would be putting them on the street. Are they right because they are the most recent "residents" to live in that house and you are therefore the one in the wrong (possession=right)? Would you abandon your rightful claim to your possession that you legally obtained and just walk away, or would you use the legal system to ensure your rights and your possessions remained with you to use for you and your family's benefit? There is very little difference between this scenario and one that would not allow west pilots to claim their rightful positions on the arbitrated and fully legal seniority list for LCC pilots.

 

[Pi brat]

Say you go on vacation for two weeks and squatters move into your house. When you return they claim you have no right to your own possession. They also claim that if you were to take your own house back that you would be putting them on the street. Are they right because they are the most recent "residents" to live in that house and you are therefore the one in the wrong (possession=right)? Would you abandon your rightful claim to your possession that you legally obtained and just walk away, or would you use the legal system to ensure your rights and your possessions remained with you to use for you and your family's benefit? There is very little difference between this scenario and one that would not allow west pilots to claim their rightful positions on the arbitrated and fully legal seniority list for LCC pilots.

Now we are squatters? You forget the TA called for separate ops, so we have exercised the seniority we have. The one on the list that counts. Are you saying that west pilots should be able to have bump and flush rights?

 

[Phoenix]

Now we are squatters? You forget the TA called for separate ops, so we have exercised the seniority we have. The one on the list that counts. Are you saying that west pilots should be able to have bump and flush rights?

Looks like bump and flush.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Now we are squatters? You forget the TA called for separate ops, so they have exercised the seniority they have that counts. Are you saying that west pilots should be able to have bump and flush rights?

Not at all. Separate ops is the only thing that all three parties can do absent a ratified JCBA. What I perceive you and Phoenix to be saying is that now that five years have passed since the award that "harm" will come to the east "third listers" and a "benefit" will come to the west pilots who are now on furlough and then count that as yet another reason to reject the validity of the award. If the list had been implemented in 2007, that scenario wouldn't have been possible. Every active east and west pilot would have taken their new, combined seniority position and those who were on furlough at the time of the merger would have come in at the most junior position which is the status all furloughs return to if recalled. The "vacation" in my hypothetical example is the delay period between the award and the implementation of the same. The rightful position of every active, furloughed, and new hire pilot was determined on 5/1/2007. The "squatters" are those formerly furloughed east pilots who will have to move below all west pilots, active or furloughed, upon ratification of the JCBA. Any claim that these "third listers" shouldn't take their rightful positions as determined by the arbitrated award because they are enjoying the benefits of separate ops is irrelevant to the legal question concerning the NIC and a DFR. The fact is that they are not entitled to a higher seniority status than where they were placed by the NIC once the NIC-inclusive JCBA is ratified, regardless of what their separate ops status is in 2012.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Here's another hypothetical for you. Let's say Doug decides to call it quits at US for whatever reason, and the BOD appoints Kirby as the interim CEO. After six months in that position, the BOD appoints Isom to the permanent CEO position as Doug's replacement. Is that fair to Kirby to ask him to resume his previous position as President and then report to Isom as CEO? Of course it is because the BOD always retained the power to determine who is the CEO and Kirby's service was always intended to be an interim appointment until the final decision was made.

Likewise, the recalled furloughed east pilots were never given or promised to have a seniority position higher than the west pilots once the JCBA was ratified. They are holding pilot positions and seniority status that is interim or temporary until a contract is ratified. Once that event happens, they will move into the position that always and rightfully belongs to them, wherever that may be on the NIC list.

 

[fodase]

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I absolutely disagree 100%.

I think they see Ferguson as the ying to Cleary's yang, and that little circle has profited them more than guys that turn that circle into cool little stickers.

I'm not quite so sure about that. Though EF being elected may not be quite as significant as Luvn suggests, I think it would signify something at any rate. If EF is elected, that would be quite an achievement that could not have taken place without some kind of change in the mindset of the east pilots, given the minority status of the west.

I personally think Luvn was putting to much weight onto it though. We've simply had to much ill will over the last few years to magically turn into a wholly unified fighting machine overnight, despite the change in mindset an EF victory would signify. Or at least that's how I imagine it.

It will be an interesting election for sure.

 

[cleardirect]

You weren't very clear. Do you think E.F. supports putting nearly half of East pilots below West furloughs and all so-called third listers on the very bottom?

Son, where in the hell did you learn your math skills? Or lack of math skills?

On the updated Nicolau list as of Jan 2012 there are 3269 east pilots not including third listers. From Colello to Varini (those guys were FURLOUGHED) there are 700.

700/3269= 21% In the real world where the rest of us live 50% is half. Yes EF supports putting the east furloughed pilots below west active pilots as the Nicolau list says to do. The third listers are below everyone.


In a merger with AA, EF would advocate for the AA furloughed pilots to go below active US Airways pilots on the Nicolau list. The DOH zealots want furloughed AA pilots to go above the third listers.

 

[nevergiveup]

Here's another hypothetical for you. Let's say Doug decides to call it quits at US for whatever reason, and the BOD appoints Kirby as the interim CEO. After six months in that position, the BOD appoints Isom to the permanent CEO position as Doug's replacement. Is that fair to Kirby to ask him to resume his previous position as President and then report to Isom as CEO? Of course it is because the BOD always retained the power to determine who is the CEO and Kirby's service was always intended to be an interim appointment until the final decision was made.

Likewise, the recalled furloughed east pilots were never given or promised to have a seniority position higher than the west pilots once the JCBA was ratified. They are holding pilot positions and seniority status that is interim or temporary until a contract is ratified. Once that event happens, they will move into the position that always and rightfully belongs to them, wherever that may be on the NIC list.

If we merge before a contract, NIC could be the one that got away. I would suggest the West use their attorney to do some type of negotiation before we merge. A bird in the hand so to speak. As you have seen, winning a lawsuit and collecting are two very different things.

 

[CallawayGolf]

If we merge before a contract, NIC could be the one that got away. I would suggest the West use their attorney to do some type of negotiation before we merge. A bird in the hand so to speak. As you have seen, winning a lawsuit and collecting are two very different things.

Well as I understand it a certified list would be required in any SLI process with another carrier whether that be negotiation, mediation, or arbitration. If USAPA were to hand over any other list besides the NIC, I suspect that would open the door for an injunction and could very well move the DFR question from unripe to fully ripe. But that's just my opinion on a future integration with AA or whoever.

 

[luvn737s]

I'm not quite so sure about that. Though EF being elected may not be quite as significant as Luvn suggests, I think it would signify something at any rate. If EF is elected, that would be quite an achievement that could not have taken place without some kind of change in the mindset of the east pilots, given the minority status of the west.

I personally think Luvn was putting to much weight onto it though. We've simply had to much ill will over the last few years to magically turn into a wholly unified fighting machine overnight, despite the change in mindset an EF victory would signify. Or at least that's how I imagine it.

It will be an interesting election for sure.

From being routinely marginalized in 8-3 BPR votes to Ferguson being elected president woud signal a sea change within pilot labor. No, I doubt we will be sending each other Valentines right off the bat, but the acrimony will begin to subside once we get rid of those whose very access to power relies on acrimony.