US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Piedmont1984]

Having a veto is not the same as having a separate CBA to negotiate on the west's behalf. Eliminating the separation of representation locked USAPA into the position of having no one to negotiate a compromise with. Restoring west veto authority does not change that - it only lets either side veto a court imposed SLI solution but leaves neither side with the ability to negotiate anything different.

Jim

If USAPA were to give PHX the autonomy and authority to negotiate S22, from scratch, as though it were March 2008 again - who could say otherwise?

After all, the union would not be abridging or denying a domicile certain rights. On the contrary, they would be expanding and extending those rights for a single issue, a single point in time, due to extraordinary circumstances.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If USAPA were to give PHX the autonomy and authority to negotiate S22, from scratch, as though it were March 2008 again - who could say otherwise?

Anyone who wanted to object, either east or west. USAPA doesn't have the legal authority to decide who represents the west. That would be the NMB's sole right and responsibility, which they exercised by declaring a single transportation existed. USAPA screwed the pooch in it's haste to eliminate separate ratification. The pooch got pregnant and had a litter of pups and USAPA can't now say "Never mind".
Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

Anyone who wanted to object, either east or west. USAPA doesn't have the legal authority to decide who represents the west. That would be the NMB's sole right and responsibility, which they exercised by declaring a single transportation existed. USAPA screwed the pooch in it's haste to eliminate separate ratification. The pooch got pregnant and had a litter of pups and USAPA can't now say "Never mind".
Jim

Okay - so what if USAPA asks, the NMB grants and no one objects?

Lets think outside the box.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Your premiss has alot of variables, do you honestly see a JCBA(the company will want it with the COC provision removed, along with SCOPE)! Getting passed, no-way, 2bill in debt and AA in control of their own destiny, (LCC will not be a player)! To many other players with real value! LCC toast in 5 years!

MM
How many times has our demise been predicted since you and I have been here.

BTW, I only have 5 years left.

 

[BoeingBoy]

That's one huge if. What has changed that would make the NMB change it's mind? Short of fragmentation, name one time the NMB has reversed a Single Transportation System ruling.

You might as well face reality - the SLI will be by one of two methods (barring throwing in another carrier) - USAPA's DOH based list or the Nic. The only other choice is if USAPA puts enough protections on it's DOH list to pacify the west and prevent a DFR suit. And that's another huge if - USAPA could escape a west DFR suit only to find itself embroiled in an east DFR suit.

Jim

 

[fodase]

And finally, it removes the company's excuse for not bargaining in good faith, namely, that a resolution to the seniority issue must come first.

Just sayin.

It's no longer a company excuse, the NMB has told usapa no negotiations until the sli issue is settled. BTW I love this "compromise" idea of yours, I wonder what happens if the east doesn't like it? Arbitration? LOL

 

[traderjake]

If USAPA were to give PHX the autonomy and authority to negotiate S22, from scratch, as though it were March 2008 again - who could say otherwise?

1800 West pilots.

You're not getting a do over.

The time to negotiate was before arbitration, not after.

 

[Piedmont1984]

It's no longer a company excuse, the NMB has told usapa no negotiations until the sli issue is settled. BTW I love this "compromise" idea of yours, I wonder what happens if the east doesn't like it? Arbitration? LOL

Wye River was not meant to go to mediation or arbitration either. It was a final attempt by ALPA to get both sides to reach a mutual and consensual solution. One side or the other didn't have the will or the motivation to reach such a solution.

That was 4 years ago.

 

[OTTER574]

I would have to wonder why anyone would argue against independent ratification. The 9th held the position that the NIC could not be ratified and acknowledged that USAPA was as free as ALPA was to make amendments in the SLI method. Under ALAP, the 9th knew that veto authority on both sides would have inevitably forced a resolution of the internal union dispute (Even E.F. acknowledges it is an internal union dispute. He is running for president and didn't even mention the company ).

Phx, you forgot quite a few facts and things in your comments...namely alpa and usapa always had the option not to enforce the LEGAL NIC via the TA. Alpa and now usapa would be faced with an UNQUESTIONABLE RIPE DFR thanks to the 9th....THX BTW... Plus and this is a big one Phx...you need to have a company (lcc who also signed the TA) willing to go along with your illegal east alpa/east usapa scheme.

Company statements under oath and in front of Federal Judges state NO to you (usapa) and your illegal quest.

OTTER

 

[Piedmont1984]

1800 West pilots.

You're not getting a do over.

The time to negotiate was before arbitration, not after.

You have no imagination.

Only our two warring groups could have turned the word compromise into a slur.

Obviously I'm way off the reservation on this issue once again.

And I hope I stay that way.

KV

 

[BoeingBoy]

Wye River was not meant to go to mediation or arbitration either. It was a final attempt by ALPA to get both sides to reach a mutual and consensual solution.

That's because each side had it's separate legal representatives under ALPA and thus a consensual solution was a possibility (but only a possibility). Note that ALPA never said they'd force a solution on either side - it knew that that was sure to produce nothing but years of court battles and millions of $$ going to lawyers. The east, in all their "wisdom" replaced ALPA and elected USAPA, which immediately made a consensual solution an impossibility. So east and west have had what ALPA knew would happen all along - nothing but time and $$ wasted in an effort for force one side's solution on the other side.

Jim

 

[traderjake]

You have no imagination.

You live in a fanasy world.

You can abide by the agreement we made or you can retire on LOA 93.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You have no imagination.

Imagination is fine until one tries to make the real world fit it. I can imagine what it'd be like to fly unaided but I'm not going to jump off the 10th floor of a building to prove that just imagining it is proof that it can be done. You keep trying to get to a place that's as impossible to get to as it is for me to flap my arms and fly.

If you want a solution, your time would be better spent voting for and supporting people that have a vision of how to get out of the mess all of you are in. Voting for those that promise to stay on the same path that got you all here will only accomplish more of the same.

Jim

 

[fodase]

Wye River was not meant to go to mediation or arbitration either. It was a final attempt by ALPA to get both sides to reach a mutual and consensual solution. One side or the other didn't have the will or the motivation to reach such a solution.

That was 4 years ago.

Right, and your side made sure to eliminate my side. Since, your side has been convicted of dfr, there are thousands of documents in public record as to your sides motivations etc. Any west pilot could easily sue and win if what you purpose gave the west less than the Nic. Just refer to jetamerica vs. alpa

 

[fifidriver]

I've written some of the candidates and asked them the following question - no answer thus far.

Should Judge Silver render a ruling which favors the Addington group, or which prompts the company to take the position that they will not expose themselves to a hybrid DFR, would USAPA consider the following:

Grant, bestow, bequeath or whatever you wish to call it, a one time, one issue, defacto veto authority to the PHX domicile on the issue of the SLI.

IOW, return to the west some measure of autonomy and authority much as they enjoyed when they were represented by their own MEC in the days preceding the representational election in 2008.

I know this sounds off the wall, but USAPA has considerable latitude in setting its own protocals. ALPA tried something similar with the Rice Commission and Wye River.

If we don't have a joint seniority list which is IMPLEMENTED so that we are actually bidding based on that list - and if we don't have a JCBA which takes us off LOA93 and C2004, then whatever merger comes along will mean we get to go to the abattoir.

APA, for example, will look at our pay rates, number of W/B aircraft, laugh at our DOH language (or insist that their 1600 furloughees exercise their DOH rights) and offer (out of generosity) to staple us to the bottom of their list.

If we invoke McCaskill-Bond, then that means negotiation, mediation and arbitration....once again. The arbitrator will consider the above factors, along with the absence of a DOH based SLI since Reagan was president, and probably rule as Nicolau did (if we're lucky).

I would be shocked if E.F. or J.K. would even consider it. They have no authority or legal right to do that. While I applaud you for thinking outside of the "box". That ship has sailed. I believe that the answer to that question is that they wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. All that it would take would be one unhappy camper and " voila' ", instant hybrid DFR.