US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

There is just no good way to merge the two groups. Doing so will probably cause an accident, something none of us want. Parting the airline out is probably the best route.

Have usapa tell Parker that. Come on boys you guys have been hoping for that for a long time. Do something about it.

 

[Metroyet]

Been reading them and it hasn't changed my POV one bit.

 

[Pi brat]

Glad I could provide you with some humor. Do you think they should change my POV?

 

[CallawayGolf]

Been reading them and it hasn't changed my POV one bit. My vote won't change and I'm afraid that with the Ferguson team the bleeding will go on for a while. We'll see.

The fact that Siegel decimated USAPA's argument isn't hard to discern with a open-minded reading of all of the filings. I think you have previously said that you think the NIC will be used eventually anyway, so why not accept that Silver will agree with the Company and the west pilot class position that USAPA is legally barred from using the NIC because of the RLA provision on DFR? If Silver rules in the next few months and USAPA files an appeal to the Ninth but is denied, this could effectively be over in mid to late 2012. What will the BPR and union execs do then? Find another way to keep the Company's "windfall" going by delaying negotiations, or will they finally accept the reality that has been staring them in the face since 2007 and go and get a new JCBA? The east pilots are running out of feet to shoot themselves in. Man that has got to be painful.

 

[Pi brat]

I think you have previously said that you think the NIC will be used eventually anyway, so why not accept that Silver will agree with the Company and the west pilot class position that USAPA is legally barred from using the NIC because of the RLA provision on DFR?

Well, I'm going to leave that to Judge Silver to decide. Unlike you, I see several variations of a "logical decision". It is hard to accept something that has not happened yet. Wouldn't you say that is logical? How many west pilots accepted the "logical ruling" from SFO, only to be disappointed. I can't say I know more than Judge Silver.

BTW, when I was talking to Koontz, he didn't see the ruling coming down like your "logical conclusion", at least the way I understand you. A lot of what Koontz said made sense. I think the outcome will hinge on a few choice terms.

 

[Metroyet]

Glad I could provide you with some humor. Do you think they should change my POV?

If you're referring to the court filings when you say "they" then Yes. More specifically, it's beyond all comprehension how you can read that and still feel self assured that victory and a DOH contract are forthcoming. If you don't want a contract just be honest and say you're voting for the delay. That's fine. The East's intransigence cannot be explained by the Nic. award anymore. Perhaps its simply Ego fighting against the withering heat of reality and the excruciating consequences of their reprehensible actions...i don't know. What I do know is that there is no way to intellectually process these filings and come away with the feeling that USAPA has even a glimmer of hope to prevail. A Child can see where this is going. You choose not to for some reason. Some emotional reason. I was involved with the East Pilots a long time ago...well before 9-11 and I've known a lot of people from your side for many years. I've watched them allow their emotions to undermine their lives and careers. It's been a painful thing to watch actually. Some friendships are gone...for now. Hopefully not forever.

Emotion is all the fuel the East needed to start this tragedy. I think that Emotion tank is drying up and many of you are ready to move the hell on.

McKee is nothing but raw, emotional EGO. Hummel is trying to play both sides of the fence to get elected...he'll get nowhere. The only logical, unemotional choice is Ferguson/Koontz.

 

[Pi brat]

If you're referring to the court filings when you say "they" then Yes. More specifically, it's beyond all comprehension how you can read that and still feel self assured that victory and a DOH contract are forthcoming. If you don't want a contract just be honest and say you're voting for the delay. That's fine. The East's intransigence cannot be explained by the Nic. award anymore. Perhaps its simply Ego fighting against the withering heat of reality and the excruciating consequences of their reprehensible actions...i don't know. What I do know is that there is no way to intellectually process these filings and come away with the feeling that USAPA has even a glimmer of hope to prevail. A Child can see where this is going. You choose not to for some reason. Some emotional reason. I was involved with the East Pilots a long time ago...well before 9-11 and I've known a lot of people from your side for many years. I've watched them allow their emotions to undermine their lives and careers. It's been a painful thing to watch actually. Some friendships are gone...for now. Hopefully not forever.

Emotion is all the fuel the East needed to start this tragedy. I think that Emotion tank is drying up and many of you are ready to move the hell on.

McKee is nothing but raw, emotional EGO. Hummel is trying to play both sides of the fence to get elected...he'll get nowhere. The only logical, unemotional choice is Ferguson/Koontz.

You say that the only logical, unemotional choice is Ferguson/Koontz after an emotional diatribe that completely misstates what I think the PROBABLE outcome is from Judge Silver.

 

[ROACLT]

If you're referring to the court filings when you say "they" then Yes. More specifically, it's beyond all comprehension how you can read that and still feel self assured that victory and a DOH contract are forthcoming. If you don't want a contract just be honest and say you're voting for the delay. That's fine. The East's intransigence cannot be explained by the Nic. award anymore. Perhaps its simply Ego fighting against the withering heat of reality and the excruciating consequences of their reprehensible actions...i don't know. What I do know is that there is no way to intellectually process these filings and come away with the feeling that USAPA has even a glimmer of hope to prevail. A Child can see where this is going. You choose not to for some reason. Some emotional reason. I was involved with the East Pilots a long time ago...well before 9-11 and I've known a lot of people from your side for many years. I've watched them allow their emotions to undermine their lives and careers. It's been a painful thing to watch actually. Some friendships are gone...for now. Hopefully not forever.

Emotion is all the fuel the East needed to start this tragedy. I think that Emotion tank is drying up and many of you are ready to move the hell on.

McKee is nothing but raw, emotional EGO. Hummel is trying to play both sides of the fence to get elected...he'll get nowhere. The only logical, unemotional choice is Ferguson/Koontz.

Actually I would say the relevancy of the supporting cases and legal findings presented by the union response eviscerates US Airways' response as well as the Addington response. I guess you will find out when Silver makes her ruling.

 

[Pi brat]

Actually I would say the relevancy of the supporting cases and legal findings presented by the union response eviscerates US Airways' response as well as the Addington response. I guess you will find out when Silver makes her ruling.

Oh no ROACLT, you don't have to wait. CG has clearly laid out the only logical conclusion.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Unbiased Facts Update: (Bill McKee Misleads The Pilot Group): February 22, 2012

Dear Subscriber,

Update for February 22, 2012

Quick Fact #228: Why does USAPA CLT Domicile Representative and Presidential Candidate Bill McKee feel the need to misrepresent information and take credit for the work done by another pilot’s union?

Link to Article

Fraternally,

webadmin@unbiasedfacts.org

Unbiased Facts is pleased to announce it will attach new documents to its notification email that can be forwarded to other pilots. We hope you enjoy this new feature and fresh presentation.

Share The Facts! We encourage you to forward this email to friends who want to know what's really going on with USAPA.

To subscribe, send a reply message with subscribe in the subject line.

To unsubscribe send a reply message with unsubscribe.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Well, I'm going to leave that to Judge Silver to decide. Unlike you, I see several variations of a "logical decision". It is hard to accept something that has not happened yet. Wouldn't you say that is logical? How many west pilots accepted the "logical ruling" from SFO, only to be disappointed. I can't say I know more than Judge Silver.

BTW, when I was talking to Koontz, he didn't see the ruling coming down like your "logical conclusion", at least the way I understand you. A lot of what Koontz said made sense. I think the outcome will hinge on a few choice terms.

I’m not precluding the possibility that Silver could make a ruling for something other than Count 1, but I am saying that the overwhelming likelihood is that Count 1 is the way she will go. You seem to have missed the point, namely that I was echoing your previous comment from a few days ago where you said that the NIC would very likely be the list. So, what I am saying in response is that the cogent reasoning of Siegel, as the legal mind with perhaps the most knowledge of the RLA in Silver’s courtroom, is quite persuasive, especially as it comes from the one party (besides Silver) who has remained consistently neutral with regards to seniority except in its unwillingness to violate the law or be exposed to financial harm.

So here we have a guy (Siegel) who is neutral, objective, and highly experienced in the RLA and who Silver is probably quite happy to have on board as she sifts through the various intricacies created by the other two parties. It should be obvious that both of those other parties have a great deal at stake in an issue where she lacks the time and experience to give this case as much attention as it needs given the incredibly diverse interpretations of the law. Last time everyone gathered in her courtroom USAPA rambled on leaving her with more questons than answers, but when Siegel interjected his account of the events and the law, she had no more questions except on how to quickly wrap things up and go on with her day. Just that event means a lot to how she views the parties and their viewpoints in this case.

Objectively, there is nothing tenuous about the Company’s filing and it has the effect of, while remaining completely neutral, affirming the basic premise of the west class’ position and rejecting the spurious claims made by USAPA. So, in order for Silver to rule on Count 2, she would have to disagree with the position of the west, and the position of the Company and dismiss some very concrete legal references and arguments by a leading RLA attorney. Do you really think that USAPA’s second-string lawyers realy put together such a persuasive case that she will rule against two parties who are in agreement in favor of the one that was already found guilty of a DFR in Wake’s courtroom.

As for the Ninth, you can go back and look if you like, but I was posting back then that ripeness was USAPA’s best and only hope of getting the Wake decision rescinded. Two liberal judges punted on ripeness back then and I never said that having them do that wasn’t a genuine possibility. What I didn’t expect was that Bybee would put together such a compelling dissenting opinion against his colleagues. Just goes to show that you might be right and a judge or judges can go against all logic and reasoning if they choose to do so. I doubt Silver will, but the possibility certainly does exist. I wouldn’t place all my hopes on her finding a tenuous loophole for USAPA to jump through this time, however.

I don’t check with Koontz or anyone else before I express my thoughts and opinions so why would I care what he thinks the ruling will be? He can believe what he likes as can you or I. Chasing a dream that you already know will likely never be, however defies all logic to me. It won't be long now and it's your paycheck that is taking the hit so carry on any way you like and make whatever decisions you can live with yourself afterwards.

 

[fodase]

Pi doesn't believe for one second usapa will get him doh, he's vote for hummel is all about trying another run around Nic. Such as hummel's longevity based pay scheme.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Pi doesn't believe for one second usapa will get him doh, he's vote for hummel is all about trying another run around Nic. Such as hummel's longevity based pay scheme.

Pi comes here and regularly claims he is all about finding solutions. However, when I asked him to engage in a serious attempt to craft or propose a viable solution he quickly changes the subject. Perhaps that is because he knows that the only possible solution will come via accepting the NIC and any other proposal or brokered solution is sure to result in a failure. NIC and LOA93 are the only two choices for now; eventually one of those choices will be eliminated despite the east's best efforts to prevent it, and it won't be the former that is going away.

 

[nycbusdriver]

USA320 answers: In every level of politics candidates run on a platform, which could change a law or the constitution. For example, abortion and gay marriage are two emotional issues where candidates run for office based on their belief. USAPA was created to break a promise, violate the contract, and for the majority to impose their will on the minority. Tomorrow is the deadline for replies to be filed in the DJ lawsuit case. Then Judge Silver will rule and I believe at that point US Airways will take the position it must implement the Nicolau Award per the court's decision.

Your examples in politics is a straw man argument. Abortion and gay marriage are not enshrined explicitly in the Constitution of the United States, therefore politicians can have varying stances without much downside. Date-of-Hire is explicit in the Constitution of USAPA.

Now, how far exactly do you think a politician would get if he/she advocated a state-sanctioned official religion? Media under exclusive control of the Executive branch? Elimination of the federal court system?

 

[cleardirect]

3 more years! 3 more years! I can hear the cheering from the Cleary camp. Vote for McKee and continue on the path of the same failed ideas.

All you have to do is look at the people that are endorsing McKee to learn how he would "govern"

Many of our fellow pilots have taken the time to write letters of endorsement:

• Mike Skinner
• Dave Koseruba
• John Hardy
• Bruce Quinby
• Pat Day
• Rich Peters
• Barry Allison
• Dave Westberg
• Scott Theuer
• Steve “Spike” Szpyrka
• Mike Gillies
• DeWitt Ingram
• Steve Crimi
• Rick Odato

Take the crazy of the crazies and make a list. There you have it. Cleary failed and these guys want more of the same.