US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Metroyet]

Does anyone have a link to the Hummel longevity pay scale I'm hearing about? If he put it out I missed it and can't find it now.

Yeah, Here it is.

 

[nic4us]

Your examples in politics is a straw man argument. Abortion and gay marriage are not enshrined explicitly in the Constitution of the United States, therefore politicians can have varying stances without much downside. Date-of-Hire is explicit in the Constitution of USAPA.

Now, how far exactly do you think a politician would get if he/she advocated a state-sanctioned official religion? Media under exclusive control of the Executive branch? Elimination of the federal court system?

And that is why both usapa and/or their illegal constitution are going away.

 

[Pi brat]

Yeah, Here it is.

That's good, right up your usual alley.

 

[USA320Pilot]

NAC Update: January 22, 2012

Domicile Visits

As we mentioned in a previous update, we are planning to visit all four domiciles during the next few months. We will use these visits to not only answer your questions regarding the recent decision by the NMB to recess mediated talks but to also answer the many questions that you certainly have regarding our efforts to obtain an industry-standard contract. We are attempting to schedule all of the visits at the airport to give you the ability to speak with us even if you only have a limited amount of time available. As of this update, we have confirmed Charlotte on March 5 and Washington on March 6. We will let you know as soon as we finalize dates for Philadelphia and Phoenix.

Cornell University Survey Research Institute

Since our January-mediated session we have been working on a new pilot survey. As with our last survey, we have contracted with the professionals at the Cornell University Survey Research Institute to both assist USAPA in the proper development of the questions in addition to actually administering the confidential survey. Pending BPR approval, we anticipate a start date of early April. As with our last survey, you will need to have a current email address on file with USAPA. If you do not have a valid or up-to-date email address on file, you can update your email address by emailing records@usairlinepilots.org. To ensure that every pilot has the opportunity to participate in the survey, if you need to update your email address we suggest you do so during the next few weeks.

Negotiations

Following our request to meet with Management outside NMB mediation, they have agreed to continue negotiations on a limited basis. In spite of our disappointment with the limited progress that was made during the NMB process, nonetheless we are still committed to meeting with the Company and continuing our work towards our ultimate goal of an industry-standard contract. We are scheduled to meet next with the Company on March 27 and 28th in Tempe.

Finally, while we have been at this for almost four years and are clearly frustrated by the Company's intransigence, we refuse to allow their behavior to deter our efforts to achieve an industry-standard contract. As we have said many times, it makes absolutely no difference who is sitting across the table from this Management, until they are ready to complete an agreement, they will continue with their "just say no" approach while at the same time saving hundreds of millions of dollars annually. However, the day will come, as it did with the failed United merger, when Management will once again become extremely motivated. It's not a question if "motivation" will once again occur; rather, it's a question of when.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Membership Services Update: February 22, 2012

Fellow Pilots,

The Membership Services Committee would like to thank those who have offered assistance to all of our returning and new hire pilots.

We have five additional items on which to update you today. Please remember everything is subject to change, as this is the latest information that we have:

1) The USAPA Safety Committee is looking for volunteers to staff vacancies. They are in the midst of reorganizing the committee and need people to staff various positions. The Safety Committee would like to have a base representative for each base; this particular position will be sort of a jack of all trades in order to point individuals in right direction.

Also needed are pilots with knowledge of SMS, Safety Culture, and ATC issues. If they can get the approval, there will be an addition to the FOQA lab/ASAP program. Interested volunteers do not need previous training, as they are willing to train. If you are interested in volunteering for the Safety Committee please contact them at safety@usairlinepilots.org or membership@usairlinepilots.org.

2) If you are interested in joining any USAPA committee please feel free to contact Membership Services at membership@usairlinepilots.org.

3) Please welcome the following pilots that were hired on February 13, 2012.

(Pilots are not pictured in order.) Juarez Moten, Jennifer Schwenk, Nicholas Pierce, Dorian Wierzba, Jay Wilheim, Salihu Ibrahim, Laurin Siivonen, Douglas Jett, Edward Hitt, Kristi Munn, John Harth, Gregory Goeke, Erik Rogers, William Foltz and Charles Boswell.

4) At this time US Airways has conducted one of four classes scheduled this spring. More information will be available after the latest Permanent East Base Bid closes. At this time 44 are scheduled to be hired in February, March and April.

5) Please remember that, as of today, US Airways has 51 pilots remaining on furlough. All East pilots have been recalled, and all West pilots have been offered recall to the East at this time. No additional recall information is available or planned at this time.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I've suggest mitigation and you guys and Ferguson say that is impossible, right? Well, a west friend told me about Eric's F/O pay rate plan. I went back and found what he was talking about, it is under the May 12, 2010 message when he was running for EVP. Here's the relevant section:
<snip>
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT! What the hell is this but mitigation?

Details, details Pi. Maybe one day you'll learn that.

First, a single longevity scale would predominately help the east since the east predominately has the longevity. All it takes is being at US/HP longer and you get more money. Which side has the highest average longevity (omitting new hires since they aren't part of the seniority integration). So just like seniority under DOH, the east would get most of the benefit of a longevity-based single pay scale.

Now look at the extended FO pay scale. FO's only. It only applies if a FO can't hold captain after 12 years - not doesn't want to but can't. The 190 almost guarantees that a good chunk of FO's could hold captain by 12 years. If there was another big furlough like the 2 the east has seen, the FO's (and only the FO's but all the FO's) could look at increases in pay annually for up to 20 years. Sort of a "You may be stuck in the right seat hanging on to a job, but at least you'll get an annual raise).

A single longevity pay scale for everyone gives mostly the east more money in exchange for accepting the Nic, an extended FO pay scale as described offers something to those stuck in the right seat over 12 years through no fault of their own.

Don't believe it - just take a look at a combined list in order of longevity and see how many west pilots are in the top 1000, 2000. Then look at how many west pilots are in the bottom 1000, 2000.

Jim

PS - Humel's supposed single pay scale by longevity is supposedly a "whisper" campaign platform plank. As "whispered" suggests, I doubt you'll find a link to it.

 

[Pi brat]

Details, details Pi. Maybe one day you'll learn that.

First, a single longevity scale would predominately help the east since the east predominately has the longevity. All it takes is being at US/HP longer and you get more money. Which side has the highest average longevity (omitting new hires since they aren't part of the seniority integration). So just like seniority under DOH, the east would get most of the benefit of a longevity-based single pay scale.

Now look at the extended FO pay scale. FO's only. It only applies if a FO can't hold captain after 12 years - not doesn't want to but can't. The 190 almost guarantees that a good chunk of FO's could hold captain by 12 years. If there was another big furlough like the 2 the east has seen, the FO's (and only the FO's but all the FO's) could look at increases in pay annually for up to 20 years. Sort of a "You may be stuck in the right seat hanging on to a job, but at least you'll get an annual raise).

A single longevity pay scale for everyone gives mostly the east more money in exchange for accepting the Nic, an extended FO pay scale as described offers something to those stuck in the right seat over 12 years through no fault of their own.

Don't believe it - just take a look at a combined list in order of longevity and see how many west pilots are in the top 1000, 2000. Then look at how many west pilots are in the bottom 1000, 2000.

Jim

PS - Humel's supposed single pay scale by longevity is supposedly a "whisper" campaign platform plank. As "whispered" suggests, I doubt you'll find a link to it.

Details, details yourself. I never said anything about a longevity scale. Nothing. It doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I merely pointed out that Ferguson said "There Can Be No “Mitigation”", but then said his message has been consistent and he listed his May 12 2010 EVP election letter that indeed offers MITIGATION. That's it.

I had not heard anything about a Hummel longevity pay idea. Nothing, so I was trying to find more info. on it.

 

[CallawayGolf]

You know what I really love about you westies and Jim? You can always tell me what I think. How do you do that?

I don't put them on here because if I do and they actually do have any value, they will be shredded and never have a chance. Better to send them to guys that may actually have a chance of using them. I find you particularly unable to see anyone else's POV.

I said "perhaps" thus giving you credit for not succumbing to the fog of war that has clouded so many others around here. There are some who actually seem to think that USAPA will win the right to substitute DOH for the NIC as if it is a foregone conclusion. If you read the Company's filings (any, all, the last one) you would see just how tenuous that scenario would be under the best or luckiest of circumstances. I didn't consider you one of those and but rather one who, beyond all rational hope, tries to keep negotiating when that ship has long sense sailed. Still I wanted to know what your best offer for a brokered solution would be and yet it never really came. Now it seems you want to align with Ferguson's position from a couple of years ago which is fine, but is would take a great deal of pilot unity if it were to have any chance at the negotiating table with Management unless of course you are talking about lowering senior captain and WB pay scales to keep costs down. IMO the east needs to close out section 22 first with the NIC and then everyone will assume you are serious. Otherwise Management and the west will leave USAPA alone to talk to the brick wall you erected.

I can see others POV just fine, but I won't substitute truth or cognitive reasoning for someone else's fantasy just so they like me. I speak my mind and have a pretty good track record of accuracy so going along with the crown isn't my thing if it means setting aside what I know to be true and correct. God made puppies to be loyal to their masters even if they are wrong, but He gave humanity a brain and it is a good idea to use it to take a stand against people who spread lies, half truths, or can't accept that 2+2=4 no matter who does the arithmetic.

 

[Pi brat]

I said "perhaps" thus giving you credit for not succumbing to the fog of war that has clouded so many others around here. There are some who actually seem to think that USAPA will win the right to substitute DOH for the NIC as if it is a foregone conclusion. If you read the Company's filings (any, all, the last one) you would see just how tenuous that scenario would be under the best or luckiest of circumstances. I didn't consider you one of those and but rather one who, beyond all rational hope, tries to keep negotiating when that ship has long sense sailed. Still I wanted to know what your best offer for a brokered solution would be and yet it never really came. Now it seems you want to align with Ferguson's position from a couple of years ago which is fine, but is would take a great deal of pilot unity if it were to have any chance at the negotiating table with Management unless of course you are talking about lowering senior captain and WB pay scales to keep costs down. IMO the east needs to close out section 22 first with the NIC and then everyone will assume you are serious. Otherwise Management and the west will leave USAPA alone to talk to the brick wall you erected.

I can see others POV just fine, but I won't substitute truth or cognitive reasoning for someone else's fantasy just so they like me. I speak my mind and have a pretty good track record of accuracy so going along with the crown isn't my thing if it means setting aside what I know to be true and correct. God made puppies to be loyal to their masters even if they are wrong, but He gave humanity a brain and it is a good idea to use it to take a stand against people who spread lies, half truths, or can't accept that 2+2=4 no matter who does the arithmetic.

Reread my post and see if you can get it. I'm trying to figure out what the candidate is saying. Is what he said mitigation to you or not?

 

[BoeingBoy]

that indeed offers MITIGATION.

That's your opinion only. Putting it in CAPS doesn't make it fact. But as you said recently, you have as much right to wrong opinions as anyone...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

That's your opinion only. Putting it in CAPS doesn't make it fact. But as you said recently, you have as much right to wrong opinions as anyone...

Jim

You left the acknowledgement that you were wrong about my post. That's okay, I know you aren't man enough.

If that isn't mitigation, what is it?

 

[CallawayGolf]

Reread my post and see if you can get it. I'm trying to figure out what the candidate is saying. Is what he said mitigation to you or not?

I re-read it twice for extra credit. Are you making a distinction between proposed solutions and mitigation? Also this was from 2010, so are his view the same now or have thy changed in the last two years? Either way, the cart is before the horse when you try to mitigate the seniority issues with longevity pay when everyone is waiting for Silver to tell them what they already know. Furthermore, if you are going to get Management to agree to non-standard rates then you have to give them something in exchange or why would they accept it? A disunified pilot group asking for more than Managent's offer isn't very compelling towards coming to an agreement.

Do you think I support all of Ferguson's viewpoints?

 

[fodase]

Does anyone have a link to the Hummel longevity pay scale I'm hearing about? If he put it out I missed it and can't find it now.

It was in one of his emails. Btw he still wants the teamsters to come in and negotiate our contract. Great plan huh?

 

[BoeingBoy]

You left the acknowledgement that you were wrong about my post. That's okay, I know you aren't man enough.

As you explained to me once, I know what you meant but you don't. You are often all over the ballpark. Most I ignore but sometimes I can't help pointing out your errors and contradictions.

I explained why it wasn't mitigation - guess you ignored that...

Jim

 

[wopr21]

Question

If Judge Silver says USAPA has to use the Nic, Is the snapshot when the Nic was awarded, or at the date Silver renders a decision?

In other words if a pilot was a captain at the Nic award and now is a F/O, does that pilot still have no bump or flush captain position that he/she can go back to without having to worry about a west pilot taking that postion that has many years less service.

wopr