US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Piedmont1984]

No, they're not smarter.

Their jobs are protected by organized crime and paid off politicians.

Like I said, they have it better and DO it smarter 🙂

 

[nevergiveup]

No it should not.

The job you hold is more important than how long it took you to get it.

Why is that so hard to understand?

We disagree. We think that paying your dues through years of service is more important. I understand how everyone wants a free ride without paying their dues, east and west.

 

[fodase]

Why don't you substitute the word 'has' for 'should' as in - longevity HAS been included in the merger of virtually all trades and all mergers - except for us dumb ass pilots.

Other mergers go without a hitch, including other labor groups on this property.

The job you hold should depend to some extent on how long it took to get it - relative to the other guy.

All the other Pilot mergers have also gone without a hitch, none have used doh in the last 20 years. So it seems the only group that is fighting what the "norm" is in a pilot merger are the east pilots. BTW was trump/usair a doh integration?

 

[traderjake]

We disagree. We think that paying your dues through years of service is more important. I understand how everyone wants a free ride without paying their dues, east and west.

I understand why East First Officers want to steal the jobs of West Captains.

 

[RSVP767]

Sorry, they were equally junior. Why is that so hard to understand or accept?

Here's something for the West to mull over....

Assume Parker sells off the West to JetBlue next week. Under a NIC type integration you would get a seniority list that looks something like this:

Demographic:
JetBlue (B6) 164 Aircraft, 2300 pilots - Senior Capt. hired NOV 1999, Junior Capt. hired JAN 2006, Junior F/O hired SEP 2010, no pilots on furlough.
America West (HP) 122 Aircraft, 1650 pilots - Senior Capt. hired MAY 1983, Junior Capt. hired JUL 1998, Junior F/O hired DEC 2004, 50 pilots on furlogh.

Integration ratio 3:2 (3 JetBlue : 2 America West)

Integrated Seniority List
1. B6 NOV 1999 Capt
2. B6 Capt
3. B6 Capt
4. HP MAY 1983 Capt
5. HP Capt
:
:
:
1850. B6 APR 2007 Capt
1851. B6 Capt
1852. B6 Capt
1853. HP JUL 1998 Capt
1854. HP Capt
------------------------------
1855. B6 MAY 2007 F/O
1856. B6 F/O
1857. B6 F/O
1858. HP AUG 1998 F/O
1859. HP F/O
:
:
:
3896. B6 SEP 2010 F/O
3897. B6 F/O
3898. B6 F/O
3899. HP DEC 2004 F/O
3900. HP F/O
--------------------------------
3901. HP furlough
3950. HP furlough MAY 2005


Senior Captian LOS differential is 16.5 YEARS
Junior Captian/Senior F/O LOS differential is 8.75 YEARS
Junior F/O LOS differential is 5.75 YEARS

And remember now,..........Y'all are just fine with this!

 

[Beancounter]

Here's something for the West to mull over....

Assume Parker sells off the West to JetBlue next week. Under a NIC type integration you would get a seniority list that looks something like this:

Demographic:
JetBlue (B6) 164 Aircraft, 2300 pilots - Senior Capt. hired NOV 1999, Junior Capt. hired JAN 2006, Junior F/O hired SEP 2010, no pilots on furlough.
America West (HP) 122 Aircraft, 1650 pilots - Senior Capt. hired MAY 1983, Junior Capt. hired JUL 1998, Junior F/O hired DEC 2004, 50 pilots on furlogh.

Integration ratio 3:2 (3 JetBlue : 2 America West)

Integrated Seniority List
1. B6 NOV 1999 Capt
2. B6 Capt
3. B6 Capt
4. HP MAY 1983 Capt
5. HP Capt
:
:
:
1850. B6 APR 2007 Capt
1851. B6 Capt
1852. B6 Capt
1853. HP JUL 1998 Capt
1854. HP Capt
------------------------------
1855. B6 MAY 2007 F/O
1856. B6 F/O
1857. B6 F/O
1858. HP AUG 1998 F/O
1859. HP F/O
:
:
:
3896. B6 SEP 2010 F/O
3897. B6 F/O
3898. B6 F/O
3899. HP DEC 2004 F/O
3900. HP F/O
--------------------------------
3901. HP furlough
3950. HP furlough MAY 2005


Senior Captian LOS differential is 16.5 YEARS
Junior Captian/Senior F/O LOS differential is 8.75 YEARS
Junior F/O LOS differential is 5.75 YEARS

And remember now,..........Y'all are just fine with this!

If an arbitrator handed down that list, yes I (can't speak for all) would be fine with that. I would be in the SAME position I am now.

Sorry, try again at justification for a staple job.

 

[BoeingBoy]

And remember now,..........Y'all are just fine with this!

Actually, you blew it - or maybe you haven't even read to award to see how Nic put the list together. The west has 757's that B6 doesn't have, so a Nic-type list would have some number of west pilots at the top (like his list has east pilots in the top 517 spots). Then it would be a ratio of A320 family captains to captains, then presumably B6 E190 captains (due to B6's pay on the E190), then ratioed A320 F/O's, then B6 E190 F/O's, then finally west furloughed. That's assuming that the west didn't take their arbitrated percentage of post-merger deliveries with them...

JIm

 

[EastCheats]

Nor us with you. People who have to refer to name calling to "strut their stuff" and cuss on top of that.........Well, I have zero respect for.

Typical Usapian, all hat and nothing between the ears.

 

[fifidriver]

deleted - previous post

 

[767one]

No, they're not smarter.

Their jobs are protected by organized crime and paid off politicians.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[cactusboy53]

If they were equally junior then they should have the exact same seniority number on the combined list. But that, of course, is impossible as well as not being the case. One was placed ahead of the other. The criteria for doing so should have included years of service, but was not. Hence our current predicament.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Not hard to understand, AND that is EXACTLY how it went down. First Officer Monda was the most JUNIOR EMPLOYED pilot at US Air. First Officer O'Dell was the most JUNIOR EMPLOYED pilot at AWA. First Officer Monda was place IN FRONT of First Officer O'Dell on the Nicolau Seniority list (page 84/230 on the seniority list). Monda was senior by years of service.

All remaining furloughed pilots, starting with our NAC Officer Dean Colello (ALL US AIR, as AWA was hiring at the time), were placed junior to First Officer O'Dell. Why is that so hard to understand?

Arbitrator Nicolau warned the AAA MC that DOH would NOT be awarded. The AAA MEC continued to instruct the MC and legal counsel to swing for the fences (DOH). The response to the Nicolau Seniority list was AAA pulling out of the JNC, and USAPA firing up its campaign for a new union based on the "gold standard". Hence our current predicament.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Not hard to understand, AND that is EXACTLY how it went down. First Officer Monda was the most JUNIOR EMPLOYED pilot at US Air. First Officer O'Dell was the most JUNIOR EMPLOYED pilot at AWA. First Officer Monda was place IN FRONT of First Officer O'Dell on the Nicolau Seniority list (page 84/230 on the seniority list). Monda was senior by years of service.

All remaining furloughed pilots, starting with our NAC Officer Dean Colello (ALL US AIR, as AWA was hiring at the time), were placed junior to First Officer O'Dell. Why is that so hard to understand?

Arbitrator Nicolau warned the AAA MC that DOH would NOT be awarded. The AAA MEC continued to instruct the MC and legal counsel to swing for the fences (DOH). The response to the Nicolau Seniority list was AAA pulling out of the JNC, and USAPA firing up its campaign for a new union based on the "gold standard". Hence our current predicament.

Good, Monda went ahead of O'dell because of greater years of service. Now how did Monda compare to the next pilot up on the AWA list in terms of years of service? If it mattered when deciding between Monda and O'dell, why ignore LOS when comparing Monda to the next guy. Statistically speaking, if you divide the lists into 1% increments, Monda was in the most junior bracket on the AAA list, as were about 18 guys on the AWA list - and I'll bet he had more time in service than almost all of them combined.

I'm not arguing with you from a legal point of view - just a philosophical one.

 

[cactusboy53]

Good, Monda went ahead of O'dell because of greater years of service. Now how did Monda compare to the next pilot up on the AWA list in terms of years of service? If it mattered when deciding between Monda and O'dell, why ignore LOS when comparing Monda to the next guy. Statistically speaking, if you divide the lists into 1% increments, Monda was in the most junior bracket on the AAA list, as were about 18 guys on the AWA list - and I'll bet he had more time in service than almost all of them combined.

I'm not arguing with you from a legal point of view - just a philosophical one.

How did Pilot McNerlin do with the list? Capt. McNerlin was placed 518, while he was the NUMBER 1 pilot at AWA. The Nicolau Seniority list is the completed byproduct of an agreed upon process. There is no compromise, because the Nicolau Seniority list IS the compromise. We are wasting valuable time, and losing MILLIONS of dollars that will NEVER be regained in the effort to evade or "mitigate" the Nicolau.

Debate to your heart's content. It does not and will not change the final and binding seniority list. PERIOD. Delay is all that has been achieved, and at what cost? HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars into LCC's management pockets. What a shame.

 

[Beancounter]

Good, Monda went ahead of O'dell because of greater years of service. Now how did Monda compare to the next pilot up on the AWA list in terms of years of service? If it mattered when deciding between Monda and O'dell, why ignore LOS when comparing Monda to the next guy. Statistically speaking, if you divide the lists into 1% increments, Monda was in the most junior bracket on the AAA list, as were about 18 guys on the AWA list - and I'll bet he had more time in service than almost all of them combined.

I'm not arguing with you from a legal point of view - just a philosophical one.

Well, since we're being philosophical. Is it OK for an FO on reserve to become a captain and a senior FO to get knocked down to reserve because of the merger?

This merger wasn't intended as a present for the east. It wasn't meant to fix a stagnant career. You guys want to staple the AWA pilot group to the bottom of your list with DOH/LOS. No matter how you look at it or try to justify it, it is wrong. It's legally, ethically, and probably even religiously 😉 WRONG.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Well, since we're being philosophical. Is it OK for an FO on reserve to become a captain and a senior FO to get knocked down to reserve because of the merger?

This merger wasn't intended as a present for the east. It wasn't meant to fix a stagnant career. You guys want to staple the AWA pilot group to the bottom of your list with DOH/LOS. No matter how you look at it or try to justify it, it is wrong. It's legally, ethically, and probably even religiously 😉 WRONG.

No, the east was not looking for a present, just credit for years of service. Stagnant careers should not be blamed on pilots.

And I agree with you, philosophically speaking, the C&Rs should have been crafted to better protect the west and LOS should have been the anchor - not DOH.