US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Beancounter]

No, the east was not looking for a present, just credit for years of service. Stagnant careers should not be blamed on pilots.

And I agree with you, philosophically speaking, the C&Rs should have been crafted to better protect the west and LOS should have been the anchor - not DOH.

Ha, Ha, that's just what you asked for, a present. If you're 18 years got you reserve FO, guess what? On the new list you're a reserve FO, not a captain. You want credit for your years of service by walking right over the AWA pilots, LOS doesn't work in our situation. Should there have been some kind of ratio to take into account your guys higher attrition, yeah probably. Your guys didn't try and get that though. They stuck to their DOH/LOS garbage mantra. The arbitrator told them it was unacceptable and instead of working with him they stubbornly refused, we've seen the result. When will you guys learn that beating your head against a brick wall only gets you a headache, well that and LOA93/NIC.

 

[cleardirect]

No, the east was not looking for a present, just credit for years of service. Stagnant careers should not be blamed on pilots.

And I agree with you, philosophically speaking, the C&Rs should have been crafted to better protect the west and LOS should have been the anchor - not DOH.

Typical east answer. Never an east pilots fault. It took 17 years of service just to be the bottom guy. At any other airline that is a new hire. Yes a stagnant career is your fault. You have a choice. LEAVE!. If management is not running the company to your satisfaction, LEAVE. If your career stagnates or after 17 years you get furloughed. Don't come back. Find something else to do.

Accept the responsibility of your own career.

 

[RSVP767]

Actually, you blew it - or maybe you haven't even read to award to see how Nic put the list together. The west has 757's that B6 doesn't have, so a Nic-type list would have some number of west pilots at the top (like his list has east pilots in the top 517 spots). Then it would be a ratio of A320 family captains to captains, then presumably B6 E190 captains (due to B6's pay on the E190), then ratioed A320 F/O's, then B6 E190 F/O's, then finally west furloughed. That's assuming that the west didn't take their arbitrated percentage of post-merger deliveries with them...

JIm

Sorry to burst your 'know-it-all' bubble Jim, but JetBlue E-190 Captains make more than America West 757 Captains ($5 to $9/hr more depending on longevity step) and their A320 Captains make $23 to $27/hr more than America West's 757 Captians, so for simplicity sake, and to the benefit of the HP pilots, I discounted that. Moreover, JetBlue E-190 F/O's make more than all America West's F/O's at any given longevity step. And that's not even accounting for the 150% pay starting at 78 credit hours!!!

So, maybe he would have arranged for a few more 'premium' spots at the top for the E-190 pilots!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Sorry to burst your 'know-it-all' bubble Jim, but

My bubble is fine - I followed the Nic methodology as far as he needed to go since the 190's weren't around on the PID. You said a NIC-like list and then disregarded his method in a weak attempt to make a point. Nic didn't take pay rates into account - otherwise most of the east captains would have been below west captains and most east FO's would have been below west FO's. He used aircraft size - widebodies then 757 then other narrowbodies. Since we don't know how he would have handled the E190 , I used one way with an explanation of why - "then presumably B6 E190 captains (due to B6's pay on the E190)". In addition, if he had followed the size method my "list" would also be accurate. So you didn't burst my bubble. Your way definitely wasn't following the Nic formula so your bubble never got inflated.

Jim

 

[fodase]

Sorry to burst your 'know-it-all' bubble Jim, but JetBlue E-190 Captains make more than America West 757 Captains ($5 to $9/hr more depending on longevity step) and their A320 Captains make $23 to $27/hr more than America West's 757 Captians, so for simplicity sake, and to the benefit of the HP pilots, I discounted that. Moreover, JetBlue E-190 F/O's make more than all America West's F/O's at any given longevity step. And that's not even accounting for the 150% pay starting at 78 credit hours!!!

So, maybe he would have arranged for a few more 'premium' spots at the top for the E-190 pilots!

Btw, thanks for making us the lowest paid for next merge

 

[Move2CLT]

No, the east was not looking for a present, just credit for years of service. Stagnant careers should not be blamed on pilots.

And I agree with you, philosophically speaking, the C&Rs should have been crafted to better protect the west and LOS should have been the anchor - not DOH.

What did 17 years LOS get you in the east just prior to the merger?

 

[crazystnic]

How did Pilot McNerlin do with the list? Capt. McNerlin was placed 518, while he was the NUMBER 1 pilot at AWA. The Nicolau Seniority list is the completed byproduct of an agreed upon process. There is no compromise, because the Nicolau Seniority list IS the compromise. We are wasting valuable time, and losing MILLIONS of dollars that will NEVER be regained in the effort to evade or "mitigate" the Nicolau.

Debate to your heart's content. It does not and will not change the final and binding seniority list. PERIOD. Delay is all that has been achieved, and at what cost? HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars into LCC's management pockets. What a shame.

That's the problem. Nic did something so messed up, neither side can believe it. He. Should of slotted and took into account east attrition and Los. If he did that he could of slotted in awa guys from the top. The top 518 are gone in short order anyway,

Bottom line nic got it so f Ed up we are still fighting this 7 years later.

And you guys aren't even being honest as you try to rationalize why the nic was ok and you didn't want to talk about fixes to it,

But in the next breath want to complain about how long this is taking.

This election will be a vote on the nic and the path we have taken, and hummell will be the guy to fight the nic.

 

[crazystnic]

Sorry, they were equally junior. Why is that so hard to understand or accept?

Because with the east attrition they wouldn't be junior long but with your plan they start over as new hires

Pretty simple really it is

 

[Move2CLT]

Because with the east attrition they wouldn't be junior long but with your plan they start over as new hires

Pretty simple really it is

No, not at all.

They would start exactly where they were at the time of the merger.

 

[Move2CLT]

That's the problem. Nic did something so messed up, neither side can believe it. He. Should of slotted and took into account east attrition and Los. If he did that he could of slotted in awa guys from the top. The top 518 are gone in short order anyway,

Bottom line nic got it so f Ed up we are still fighting this 7 years later.

And you guys aren't even being honest as you try to rationalize why the nic was ok and you didn't want to talk about fixes to it,

But in the next breath want to complain about how long this is taking.

This election will be a vote on the nic and the path we have taken, and hummell will be the guy to fight the nic.

"We" are not fighting the Nic, only you are. Only you think this is f'ed up.

And your confidence in Hummel is funny. Many easties are afraid he'll be the be to bring in the Nic. So much so that they're voting for the west slate.

 

[SparrowHawk]

"We" are not fighting the Nic, only you are. Only you think this is f'ed up.

And your confidence in Hummel is funny. Many easties are afraid he'll be the be to bring in the Nic. So much so that they're voting for the west slate.

If it takes 7 years to wrangle a raise out of Doug Parker then by definition it's F'ed up. And that's all I now.

 

[PullUp]

"We" are not fighting the Nic, only you are. Only you think this is f'ed up.

And your confidence in Hummel is funny. Many easties are afraid he'll be the be to bring in the Nic. So much so that they're voting for the west slate.

That's just freakin' ridiculous. If you don't want Nic, why would you vote for the guys that will definitely, 100%, use every ounce of their energy to implement it?
I've read the recall theory, too. Equally ridiculous.
Nobody I've talked to including third listers is voting for the west slate.
But, all will be revealed in another week.
Cheers.

 

[KTM300]

Well, since we're being philosophical. Is it OK for an FO on reserve to become a captain and a senior FO to get knocked down to reserve because of the merger?

This merger wasn't intended as a present for the east. It wasn't meant to fix a stagnant career. You guys want to staple the AWA pilot group to the bottom of your list with DOH/LOS. No matter how you look at it or try to justify it, it is wrong. It's legally, ethically, and probably even religiously 😉 WRONG.

I would like to know who is the FO on reserve that is "to become a captain" and the senior FO "to get knocked down to reserve because of the merger"?

 

[Move2CLT]

That's just freakin' ridiculous. If you don't want Nic, why would you vote for the guys that will definitely, 100%, use every ounce of their energy to implement it?
I've read the recall theory, too. Equally ridiculous.
Nobody I've talked to including third listers is voting for the west slate.
But, all will be revealed in another week.
Cheers.

Ask luvthe9. He posted his intention to vote west right here.

 

[fifidriver]

Now there three things in life that are "certain", death, taxes, and the Nic! Good Luck with that!