US Pilots Labor Discussion

[fatherabraham]

You got that right!

Ames,

Never has been nor ever will be the original intent of union membership to seek personal gain at a union brothers expense.
You know this! We all do! Endless self rationalization will not change the fact.
Your exact argument could be used by you for example a LCC-AA merge. I'm betting your likes would not tell a AA pilot in a direct conversation that your 1/3 LOS to his should place you above him due to AA BK. That's pure BS no matter how you paint it!

FA

 

[Move2CLT]

Its too bad pilots like breeze can't see two feet ahead of them to where real change can actually occur.

This is it boys - a real candidate with a real plan.

For the rest of you easties, enjoy chasing that carrot that Hummel dangles in front of you on a stick. You'll be pulling him, LOA93, and more broken promises on that cart he's riding.

http://www.fergusonforpresident.com/index-7.html

 

[Move2CLT]

Ames,

Never has been nor ever will be the original intent of union membership to seek personal gain at a union brothers expense.
You know this! We all do! Endless self rationalization will not change the fact.
Your exact argument could be used by you for example a LCC-AA merge. I'm betting your likes would not tell a AA pilot in a direct conversation that your 1/3 LOS to his should place you above him due to AA BK. That's pure BS no matter how you paint it!

FA

Its called relative seniority.

Learn it now because you'll be living under it soon junior.

 

[fatherabraham]

Its called relative seniority.

Learn it now because you'll be living under it soon junior.

Me thinks the majority votes less harm by status quo, kinda like previous many years.
Get used to that senior Niccy.

 

[cleardirect]

not to pursue the ALPA/Nicolau list in collective bargaining. These facts show that the
premise underlying the ALPA/Nicolau list—that America West was an economically
robust, successful, and growing operation that swooped in to save a bankrupt, withering
US Airways operation—was not true either when the Nicolau Award was issued or in
view of subsequent facts and events. To the contrary, but for the merger, America West
would have filed its own bankruptcy petition. The SEC 10-K filings show that during an
18 month period following the merger, the West operation lost $13 million while the East
operation made $556 million. And, since the merger West flying has significantly
diminished while East flying has remained stable or has grown such that approximately
335 positions that originated with US Airways are now being flown by West pilots.
These facts, along with the salient truth that a collective bargaining agreement that
included the ALPA/Nicolau list could not be ratified, fully justify a departure from the
ALPA/Nicolau list.
Moreover, the WPC

You know it is not nice to lie to a federal judge. Here is something else that usapa told the judge that was not truthful.

(12) the ALPA/Nicolau list incorrectly described 326 US Airways pilots as on furlough when in fact they were actively flying at US Airways subsidiary Mid-Atlantic Airlines

Usapa has in their possession the arbitration award (final and binding) about the MDA grievance. The arbitrator said very clearly that the MDA guys were furloughed yet usapa lied to the judge that they were not. BTW the Naugler case is addressed in there as well. This arbitration killed the Naugler case. Also another arbitrator had already looked at whether MDA were furloughed or not. He decided that they were. So the entire grievance was a waste of time and money by usapa because they already knew the answer. What a waste just to kiss some junior pilots butt. Giving you guy hope like is wrong. But not unheard of from east leadership.

The instant grievance was filed on May 9, 2007 pursuant to the provisions of the parties’ 1998 greement, as amended. As the foregoing Questions at Issue suggest, the grievance seeks to obtain longevity credit for pay and benefit purposes under the Agreement for the pilots who flew at Mid-Atlantic Airlines (“MDA”) during the years 2003 through 2006. This was a time frame during which most of those pilots had been furloughed from the Company. The Company has refused to credit MDA pilots with longevity credit for the time they spent flying for MDA.

In accordance with Section 23(A) of the Agreement, which is quoted on the previous page, time spent on furlough from the Company does not generate longevity credit.

If MDA had been constituted as a wholly-owned subsidiary, it is further undisputed that any pilots who were furloughed from the Company and flew for MDA would not receive any longevity credit for pay and benefit purposes under the 1998 Agreement, as amended by the RA, for their MDA service time.

The RA also did contain some language to provide the “make whole” equivalent of longevity credit under the Mainline Agreement to pilots furloughed from the Company who worked at MDA if they fell into certain specified circumstances that prevented them from returning promptly to Company flying upon being recalled from furlough.


Letter 83 was entitled “Accelerated Small Jets” and provided for more jets and, hopefully, more jobs for furloughed pilots. According to the testimony of the negotiators, there were no discussions about whether pilots flying at MDA would accrue longevity credit under the Agreement for their MDA service while furloughed from the Company.


Mainline flying refers to the work performed by Company pilots who were not furloughed.


Effective June 4, 2003, Company pilot Dean Colello was furloughed. Colello was the most senior pilot of the final group of Company pilots to be furloughed.

On May 19, 2005, the proposed merger with America West Airlines was announced. It appears from the evidence that this date was also the Policy Initiation Date for the ALPA Merger Policy. Company Exhibit 22 is the seniority list that depicts service data compiled by the Merger Committee representing the US Airways pilots. The data is certified as of the May 19 date. According to information contained in the various other documents in the evidentiary record, as many as 1,691 Mainline pilots were on furlough status from the Company as of that date.

That should put to rest the urban myth that it was the west pilots that gave Nicolau the east list.

The instant grievance was filed on May 9, 2007. The Company denied it on the basis of Section 23(A) of the Mainline Agreement which operates to stop a pilot’s accrual of longevity for pay and benefit purposes while the pilot is on furlough status.

MDA pilots did not all come from pilots that had been furloughed by the Company. The Jets for Jobs program allowed pilots to be hired at MDA if vacancies remained after the list of furloughed pilots had been exhausted.


When the furloughed MDA pilots were recalled to Mainline service, their longevity for pay and benefit purposes, including the Company’s lump sum contributions to the DC Plan, had to be brought up to date.


Although his date of hire would always remain July 18, 1988, his time spent in furlough status gave him a longevity date of March 25, 1991.

The context of the protective provisions clearly shows the parties knew that such MDA pilots were furloughed from Mainline while flying for MDA and were not flying for the Company within the meaning of the Mainline Agreement.

This needs to be highlighted. Clearly show ALL parties knew MDA pilots were furloughed. It a pilot is to stupid to read and understand english he should not be working here. For you guys to now say you did not know or misunderstood. To bad so sad. That is on you guys. Naugler is a loser and will not change a thing.

Each letter shows they intended to undertake deeper and more widespread cost cutting measures that successively worsened the pay, benefits, and working conditions of the non-furloughed Mainline pilots who kept the airline flying.

When the evidence is examined from the standpoint of the furlough status of the MDA pilots, the considerations again support our finding. The Association’s witness who was a negotiator for most of the letters of agreement also was deposed in the Naugler litigation. Page 51 of his deposition (CX 20) reads, in pertinent part, as follows on the furlough status:
* * *
Now, I had previously tried to have all those airplanes placed
on the mainline. We were not successful in that negotiation. The
company would have none of it. So we tried a middle ground,
creating an entity called Mid-Atlantic to provide those jobs rather
than what they would have done in the past before Mid-Atlantic’s
creation, just simply leave those pilots on the street.
So when those pilots come to work for Mid-Atlantic, they had
to be offered a job opportunity, not a recall from furlough, but a job
opportunity if they chose to take it. And I think our collective
bargaining agreement indicates that.

The Naugler litigation also included the deposition (CX 19) of another non-furloughed pilot. This pilot had served as the Association’s MEC Vice-Chairman during the relevant time frame. When asked about what comments he made about the status of furloughed pilots working at MDA, he said, on page 59 of his deposition, the following:
* * *
Q. Do you remember what you said as to whether the Mid- Atlantic pilots were furloughed?

A. In my opinion, the Mid-Atlantic pilots were furloughed.
Q. What did you base that opinion on?
A. On the fact that they had a furlough date and had not been recalled.

The Horowitz Award (CX 13) also supports our conclusions. It considered the status of a furloughed Mainline pilot who worked at MDA when he was diagnosed with a disabling medical condition. The Award on Grievance 06-09-01 said, in pertinent part, the following:

Here you have another neutral arbitrator telling the east pilots that MDA was furloughed. The grievance committee should have known this and told you guys. But instead they wasted union dues chasing a losing case again. Is it incompetence or misuse of union resources?

In light of the foregoing factors, the weight of the evidence convincingly establishes that furloughed Mainline pilots remained in that furlough status while they worked for MDA.

The arbitrator. Pretty clear statement. Yet usapa is telling a federal judge that they were furloughed. Intentional lying?

 

[cleardirect]

Ames,

Never has been nor ever will be the original intent of union membership to seek personal gain at a union brothers expense.
You know this! We all do! Endless self rationalization will not change the fact.
Your exact argument could be used by you for example a LCC-AA merge. I'm betting your likes would not tell a AA pilot in a direct conversation that your 1/3 LOS to his should place you above him due to AA BK. That's pure BS no matter how you paint it!

FA

What you guys going to tell that AA pilot? That you are a 25 year 20 year LOS F/O but should go ahead of the WB never furloughed captains ?

 

[Move2CLT]

What you guys going to tell that AA pilot? That you are a 25 year 20 year LOS F/O but should go ahead of the WB never furloughed captains ?

Yes, that's that they'll tell them.

I wonder what that AA pilot will tell them in response?

Hey fatherAbe, let me know when you're going to tell that to the AA guys - I really want to be there.

 

[fatherabraham]

What you guys going to tell that AA pilot? That you are a 25 year 20 year LOS F/O but should go ahead of the WB never furloughed captains ?

Not me or any Eastie I've ever met. Pigs tend to get stuck!

FA

 

[high*flyer]

"The grievance committee should have known this and told you guys. But instead they wasted union dues chasing a losing case again. Is it incompetence or misuse of union funds"

Funny, you champion minority representation, but only selectively.....Do the MDA pilots hold any less rights than the west?

 

[fatherabraham]

Yes, that's that they'll tell them.

I wonder what that AA pilot will tell them in response?

Hey fatherAbe, let me know when you're going to tell that to the AA guys - I really want to be there.

Boo Boo,

I'm not a greedy type, so I'm a bit too easy to negotiate with. In addition, am really blessed in other ways and personally couldn't care less if LCC goes under for good. So, it would be quite boring listening to my NON-demands.
That said, DOH with agreed upon C&R has usually been least hateful sli in past.
Btw....AA rejected my Pee Pee in 87, they don't want me or US.

FA

 

[Harry Callahan]

Boo Boo,

I'm not a greedy type, so I'm a bit too easy to negotiate with. In addition, am really blessed in other ways and personally couldn't care less if LCC goes under for good.

FA

FA:
I actually feel the same way, Would be a big relief.

 

[Move2CLT]

Me thinks the majority votes less harm by status quo, kinda like previous many years.
Get used to that senior Niccy.

Sure boo boo, whatever you say.

 

[Move2CLT]

"The grievance committee should have known this and told you guys. But instead they wasted union dues chasing a losing case again. Is it incompetence or misuse of union funds"

Funny, you champion minority representation, but only selectively.....Do the MDA pilots hold any less rights than the west?

Of course not.

But when their case is a CLEAR loser, like LOA93 was, you shouldn't be throwing away dues money.

 

[luvn737s]

Btw....AA rejected my Pee Pee in 87, they don't want me or US.

FA

You were supposed to send them a stool sample. You easties really don't like to play by the rules, do you?

 

[Move2CLT]

Boo Boo,

I'm not a greedy type, so I'm a bit too easy to negotiate with. In addition, am really blessed in other ways and personally couldn't care less if LCC goes under for good. So, it would be quite boring listening to my NON-demands.
That said, DOH with agreed upon C&R has usually been least hateful sli in past.
Btw....AA rejected my Pee Pee in 87, they don't want me or US.

FA

Ahh, even more easties blessed with highly successful second businesses who don't need this place but fight like hell for DOH.

LMAO!!

DOH with C&R's now? Wonder where those C&R's were when we were in negotiations and mediation? Now, after the arbitration, you're all gung ho on C&R's.

Do you know anything about the C&R's that were offered? Where did most of the new airplanes go? Furloughs? How about base closures/downsizing?

Your C&R's were nothing more than DOH with DOH on top. So save it.

And when was the last time DOH with anything was used FA? Ya, that's what I thought.