US Pilots Labor Discussion

[fatherabraham]

FA,

You really do confuse me. It would appear from the post above you would do what is right.

How can using DOH/LOS to place the majority of AWA pilots on the bottom of the seniority list, not be seeking personal gain at a union brothers expense?

I think the problem is, you flat out don't know right from wrong.

Bean

Bean,

Ditto on confusion!
At times you seem to think/do as I , then others full of hate/spite.
Doubt were both ignorant of issues or of a mental disorder. More rationally thinking, perhaps just all the failings of the written word versus 1 on 1 communication .

I and many Easties have replied to your question many many many times.
But I will waste a couple more minutes typing only to be corrected on my thoughts and explained to again how we had our chance, what don't I understand bout binding arb, failing carrier , awa bought me .....etc etc etc.

Speaking for ONLY myself.......Just wanted to keep the attrition that I paid dearly for in many ways w/o it being snatched for good by a union brother with 17 years LOS less than I . Could of used more words but that sums it up and why I thought and think DOH with just about any fence you can name to keep your status quo and career hopes alive ok by me. Mgt decisions routinely negatively affect us differently , and no one should expect or realize a brother to make up for mgt decisions.

FA

 

[fatherabraham]

Ok, then I misread what you said as flirting.

What did you mean then?

Boo Boo,

Learned long ago not to put in writing anything that I could not answer to truthfully and spare myself / others potential negative consequence. Are you thinking I might be so foolish as that?

Walk softly, carry.......

FA

 

[Ames]

Ames,

Never has been nor ever will be the original intent of union membership to seek personal gain at a union brothers expense.
You know this! We all do! Endless self rationalization will not change the fact.
Your exact argument could be used by you for example a LCC-AA merge. I'm betting your likes would not tell a AA pilot in a direct conversation that your 1/3 LOS to his should place you above him due to AA BK. That's pure BS no matter how you paint it!

FA

I do know this but ucrapa does not behave like a real union. If we merge with American I will tell anyone to his face that relative seniority of active pilots is the only fair way to merge - even though his company is on the brink of liquidation while I just cashed a profit sharing check. LOS/DOH are irrelevant, especially if one is furloughed at the time of a merger.

Get over it. This will soon end in the court.

 

[high*flyer]

In other words you won't answer the question.

The question is whether the union has the obligation to represent its membership. Which USAPA did in this case. It could no more turn it's back on the MDA pilots than the former union could on the am west crew who used poor judgement on an overnight! As to whether the pilots were furloughed is not for me to decide.

 

[fatherabraham]

I do know this but ucrapa does not behave like a real union. If we merge with American I will tell anyone to his face that relative seniority of active pilots is the only fair way to merge - even though his company is on the brink of liquidation while I just cashed a profit sharing check. LOS/DOH are irrelevant, especially if one is furloughed at the time of a merger.

Get over it. This will soon end in the court.

You may develop an opinion about APA that is not to your liking, it too however will remain a real union.

I'll leave it to AAviator or comrade to chime in on your relative dream. Be sure to point out the actual LOS for your most junior west narrow body cap ( sans the Nic bs ) vs APA same position and how righteous your position for the difference in LOS .
I'm sure he'll understand ;-)

FA

 

[Move2CLT]

Boo Boo,

Learned long ago not to put in writing anything that I could not answer to truthfully and spare myself / others potential negative consequence. Are you thinking I might be so foolish as that?

Walk softly, carry.......

FA

Got it. Youre threatening me with physical violence but you just don't want to post it.

So much for your religious beliefs.

 

[Ames]

Got it. Youre threatening me with physical violence but you just don't want to post it.

He knows that he would lose big time should you go to HR. Ah, but wouldn't it be fun to give him his chance to show how tough he is? I would pay good money to see that.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The question is whether the union has the obligation to represent its membership. Which USAPA did in this case. It could no more turn it's back on the MDA pilots than the former union could on the am west crew who used poor judgement on an overnight! As to whether the pilots were furloughed is not for me to decide.

Nobody turned their backs to the MDA pilots. According to the company, their bargaining agent at the time of the merger, their MEC, and not the arbitrator they were considered furloughed from mainline at the PID. Furloughed is furloughed and that is how the SLI arbitration panel considered them in the integrated ordering of the newly combined list. You seem to be equating objectively recognizing their furloughed status, as has been confirmed over and over again by various recognized authorities, with having their bargaining agent turn their backs on them. In other words, you want the bargaining agent to grant them a status that was not in fact the case which would have the inescapable result of giving preferential treatment to furloughed pilots which would bring harm to pilots who were active at the time of the merger. ALPA had it right with regard to their status and NIC got it right with regard to their position as being junior to every active, mainline east and west pilot.

 

[Ames]

You may develop an opinion about APA that is not to your liking, it too however will remain a real union.

I'll leave it to AAviator or comrade to chime in on your relative dream. Be sure to point out the actual LOS for your most junior west narrow body cap ( sans the Nic bs ) vs APA same position and how righteous your position for the difference in LOS .
I'm sure he'll understand ;-)

FA

I know that it is not possible for me to think any less of a union than I do of ucrapa. After all, the APA was not founded for the sole purpose of avoiding a legal arbitration. As bad as a merger with American promises to be there are some upsides: For one, the toxic gene pool of eastholes would be diluted and for another the undigestable name of UsAirways will finally go away. For those things I will be grateful.

 

[fatherabraham]

Got it. Youre threatening me with physical violence but you just don't want to post it.

So much for your religious beliefs.

Now now Boo Boo,
Don't put words in my mouth. Not prone to violence in any way and nothing to prove regardless of what you and Ames etc believe.
I believe it was you who post requirements in not to distant past as to CRM behavior.
If your as thick skinned as you lead us to believe, then we will have a blast. If not.......oh well

FA

 

[cleardirect]

You may develop an opinion about APA that is not to your liking, it too however will remain a real union.

I'll leave it to AAviator or comrade to chime in on your relative dream. Be sure to point out the actual LOS for your most junior west narrow body cap ( sans the Nic bs ) vs APA same position and how righteous your position for the difference in LOS .
I'm sure he'll understand ;-)

FA

Junior captain at AA 1992.
Junior captain west 1998.
Junior east captain 1986.

Look at that. A 6 year difference between each. But look at what else is there. All 3 are junior group 2 captains. Also look at what it takes to be a group 2 captain on the east. LOS will not matter a bit.

26 years to be junior captain on the east. 20 east for an AA junior captain. 14 years for a west junior captain.

Do you guys think in any universe the AA pilots will accept DOH? What position do you think a 1986 hire at AA holds? The junior east captain is a 6/1986 hire. On the AA seniority list there are 1580 pilots hired before 6/1986 for a total of 9800 active pilots.

Anyone in their right mind think that AA is going to agree to put 2226 east pilots in the top 1580 AA pilots? What was the east argument at arbitration? Wide body flying is special and therefore should be protected. AA has 125 WB. That is about 3500 AA pilots. 3500 down the AA list takes you to 1990 before the NB pilots would come in using east logic.

You can take LOS and throw it out the window. A merger between AA and LCC relative with fences for WB.

Senior furloughed guy at AA 1999 hire date.

I would love to be in on that conversation when you tell an AA pilot that your east junior NB F/O's should be slotted in with their senior WB pilots. That your F/O's should be slotted in with their captains. We saw how that worked out before.

 

[fatherabraham]

Junior captain at AA 1992.
Junior captain west 1998.
Junior east captain 1986.

Look at that. A 6 year difference between each. But look at what else is there. All 3 are junior group 2 captains. Also look at what it takes to be a group 2 captain on the east. LOS will not matter a bit.

26 years to be junior captain on the east. 20 east for an AA junior captain. 14 years for a west junior captain.

Do you guys think in any universe the AA pilots will accept DOH? What position do you think a 1986 hire at AA holds? The junior east captain is a 6/1986 hire. On the AA seniority list there are 1580 pilots hired before 6/1986 for a total of 9800 active pilots.

Anyone in their right mind think that AA is going to agree to put 2226 east pilots in the top 1580 AA pilots? What was the east argument at arbitration? Wide body flying is special and therefore should be protected. AA has 125 WB. That is about 3500 AA pilots. 3500 down the AA list takes you to 1990 before the NB pilots would come in using east logic.

You can take LOS and throw it out the window. A merger between AA and LCC relative with fences for WB.

Senior furloughed guy at AA 1999 hire date.

I would love to be in on that conversation when you tell an AA pilot that your east junior NB F/O's should be slotted in with their senior WB pilots. That your F/O's should be slotted in with their captains. We saw how that worked

 

[cleardirect]

The list I have has a furloughed guy, a recalled guy and a furloughed guy. So I assume that anyone senior to the recall guy has bypassed. He was hired in 1999. Those are the retirement dates. 45, 47 and 39year old respectively.

Pilot central listed the junior captain as 1992

At the time of the merger your senior furloughed pilot was hired in 1888 and your junior captain was hired in 1986. I looks funny but it is what it is.


9819 11/30/1999 8/10/2032 FUR 3/2/2002
9820 11/30/1999 7/28/2034 Recalled 3/2/2002
9821 11/30/1999 12/27/2038 FUR 3/2/2002

 

[fatherabraham]

I would love to be in on that conversation when you tell an AA pilot that your east junior NB F/O's should be slotted in with their senior WB pilots. That your F/O's should be slotted in with their captains. We saw how that worked

It would actuall be quite civil between us as I agree that notion is rediculous.
Likewise, I would like to hear your dance on St Nic slotting sans huge fences

FA

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

You know it is not nice to lie to a federal judge. Here is something else that usapa told the judge that was not truthful.




Usapa has in their possession the arbitration award (final and binding) about the MDA grievance. The arbitrator said very clearly that the MDA guys were furloughed yet usapa lied to the judge that they were not. BTW the Naugler case is addressed in there as well. This arbitration killed the Naugler case. Also another arbitrator had already looked at whether MDA were furloughed or not. He decided that they were. So the entire grievance was a waste of time and money by usapa because they already knew the answer. What a waste just to kiss some junior pilots butt. Giving you guy hope like is wrong. But not unheard of from east leadership.





That should put to rest the urban myth that it was the west pilots that gave Nicolau the east list.





This needs to be highlighted. Clearly show ALL parties knew MDA pilots were furloughed. It a pilot is to stupid to read and understand english he should not be working here. For you guys to now say you did not know or misunderstood. To bad so sad. That is on you guys. Naugler is a loser and will not change a thing.



Here you have another neutral arbitrator telling the east pilots that MDA was furloughed. The grievance committee should have known this and told you guys. But instead they wasted union dues chasing a losing case again. Is it incompetence or misuse of union resources?



The arbitrator. Pretty clear statement. Yet usapa is telling a federal judge that they were furloughed. Intentional lying?
[/quote]
That is peculiar COHEN , WEISS, & SIMON say this! Aren't they the ALPA attorney's ? 1. The Merger Committee Did Not List the MDA Pilots as Furloughed
on the Certified Seniority List
Plaintiffs assert that the Certified Seniority List “trumpeted” that the MDA pilots
were furloughed18 and that it “could be interpreted only”19 as showing that the MDA pilots were
furloughed. But the Certified Seniority List does not have “FUR” in the status column next to
the names of the MDA pilots, while other pilots, who were furloughed and did not take positions
at MDA, or left MDA before May 19, 2005, did have “FUR” listed next to their names. And as
the two members of the Merger Committee testified, this choice was explicitly made in an effort
to convince the Arbitration Board that the MDA pilots were active pilots flying on the US
Airways operating certificate.
Q: I believe you testified and again directing your attention to entries at
page 81 -- if an individual such as Mr. Colello had a blank under the
"Status" rather than an "FUR" under the "Status," that was to represent to
the arbitrator that he should be treated as an active pilot; is that right?
A: That’s correct.
Kirch Dep. Tr. at 196:12-20.
Q: I'm asking if they were active pilots on the US Airways seniority list.
A: The CEL pilots that came to MidAtlantic?
Q: Those who were flying the 170. Yes.
I would get to NEW YORK and set the record straight before ALPA messes it up!